Flying Scotsman

Spamcan, I think you could be onto something there. That sounds a rather fair assessment to me, possibly very much nail hit on head there.

 

Well said yu throw the bait out the fish come th FISH7373 81C

 

That is quite a low mileage considering there are some non mainline or even narrow gauge locos covering double that.

A quick scan through the archives on www.uksteam.info shows 4472 failing in service more than twice but also being replaced by another loco quite frequently especially in 2003-4. On top of that it seems to be booked to work a lot of tours that never even run. The reasons aren't always given.

 

A4 frames have a different horn stay arrangement, amongst other changes, which reduced problems with the frames.

Yes, it was souped up a bit, yes it was probably worked harder than it could otherwise have been, but more likely it's suffering from old age more than anything else. All steel will crack up if subjected to sufficient load cycles.

 

Nowhere near £800k!

 

Given what Townend says about the free interchange of frames on the A3's, do we actually know if 60103 is now paired with its original frames, or another set acquired along the way? Maybe there is no way of knowing, unless the NRM have the appropriate Doncaster works record cards.

46118

 

I would have thought any mods would have to be approved by the VAB and there should be a paperwork trail.

 

So essentially, David Ward's comments in the recent issue no.170 Heritage Railway are not quite painting the whole picture? Quelle surprise.

It's very interesting who exactly responded to the report and in what vein. Roland Kennington, David Ward and Peter Butler all defending their involvements - logical really with such a hard hitting review - but it struck me as rather telling that Roland Kennington brushed off criticism of the boiler by saying:

"...the boiler had been in service for for five years, so it would seem to any reasonable person that wear would have taken place".

But at 28,000 miles quoted over four years, would that level of wear and tear on the A4 boiler been acceptable on another mainline locomotive? I only really know of Tornado's condition, which is the comparison I have made frequently when writing in this thread, but even with the stay damage and firebox problems with regards the heating and cooling cycles Tornado was getting through in the first few years, that boiler did not seem to have the same level of wear and tear as Scotsman's did which ultimately led the museum to deciding to repair the A3 boiler instead and selling on the spare A4 unit.

No one likes to think that people act deliberately in terms of damage, and I am sure there was nothing malicious at any point in any one man or group's ownership of 4472 over its lifetime in terms of deliberately running it into the ground. The fact remains that suitable amounts of hindsight towards future overhauls was not taken at the time of making decisions which have had severe consequences further down the line. I would respect the gentlemen named above more if they were more honest with the public as a whole, rather than attempting it seems, if meeee's post above is anything to go by, to obfuscate the truth on 4472.

That was my next question Keith. Do all of these modifications - which as far as I know, were not carried out to any A3 in service at any time - need to be approved by the VAB? Your post intimates they do - if that is the case, on what basis would these modifications be passed?

 

Don't tell me...you're not saying that Flying Scotsman isn't Flying Scotsman, are you? Oh no; the NRM have bought the wrong loco! People conned into parting with money under false pretences. The mags will have a field day.

 

I should have added that this assumes that the current problems are a result of said modifications. Something of which we have no published proof as of yet.

 

A further fair point Spamcan.

 

Coincidentally, there is a GA of the front end of an A3 in the attached (p.7), showing the position of the middle cylinder. http://www.heritagerailways.com/docs/HGR-B9030-Is01-Smokeboxes.pdf

 

Your £800,000 figure for Tornado's boiler is well wide of the mark, i was told in confidence the true cost, that figure quoted is massively excessive.

 

Steve: No! I was just wondering "if" anyone knows how old the set of frames on 4472 are! I know the perceived wisdom is that a loco's frames determine its identity, but in this instance if Doncaster were regularly utilising a spare set of frames to get an A3 back out on the road, then I cannot see how it would change the identity of a given engine, even if they had come out from under another member of the class and been repaired.
The more usual situation would be for a works to have spare repaired boilers so that they could complete an overhaul more quickly, rather than have a repaired chassis waiting for its own boiler.

 

Hi
Can I say something as long as it don’t get twisted if you look at the front at smoke box the frames are flame cut round, not like the Wembley exhibition loco.
FISH7373 81C

 

I'm a very long way from being any kind of expert on the matter, but I do recall (hopefully fairly accurately!) a quote by the head of the NRM around the time they bought the 'old girl', that the only bits of her that Mr Pegler would have seen at Wembley were the back part of the frames and possibly the sides of the cab, one of which was still stamped '1472'. All the rest had been replaced.

To throw some light on the 'spare frames' issue, I recall reading that, during LNER days, one (which one - can't remember!)of the A3s got badly damaged in an accident and was taken to Doncaster. Within a day or two a fully repaired A3 was back in traffic bearing the same name and no. as the damaged one. Clearly the damaged one hadn't been repaired, Doncaster had assembled a complete new loco from spares in stock and just moved the plates / identitiy.

Cheers
Adrian

 

Was that "Grand Parade"?

Mark

 

Yes, that's the one!

 

Was it really in confidence..

I seem to remember a massive press conference in 2002 with a big white banner sitting between the smoke box and cab saying some figure to fill the gap.. £250k I think.
Indeed I think it was a on a few magazine covers at the time.

 

That was the 1937 Castlecary crash, wasn't it?

Tom