M7 No. 245 - a couple of questions

Tom

Thanks, that's great. I may be able to make a contribution to a new build now, and 32424 would be my first choice of the current projects, but I wanted to get a better feel first.

Toby

 

Paul, quite right. But a mixed production line of 700s and M7s is an intriguing idea. Does anyone know off-hand what components (saturated boilers and cylinders aside) they share?

Tobbes

 

China has to be the obvious one, though they may be cheap, they would want bulk... and in a few years there would be Sino7 copies running around kowloon's markets;-)

 

Would have to check, but I think probably boiler, cylinders, motion, chimney and a lot of smaller components such as injectors, cab controls and various detail fittings. If you were having to draw afresh, work out the manufacturing process, make patterns or jigs etc, then even something as trivial as a handwheel or oil pot would represent a saving if you could use the initial design time and investment across multiple locomotives.

Incidentally, new-build small-scale series production works in the aeroplane world. If you have enough money, you can have a Flugwerk Fw190, a Messerchmidt 262, a DeHavilland Mosquito, even an Allison engined Spitfire made for you as one of a small series (often with more modern / more available engines to keep the price down). But I suspect the reason it hasn't yet happened in the railway world is that the initial capital requirements to build the first are higher which you then recoup on subsequent builds (for example, to build a mosquito, you need first to make some moulds for the fuselage). The nature of the types of people who own aeroplanes (often wealthy individuals, rather than capital-poor preservation societies) mean that for the companies doing series production, there has often been a wealthy collector to pump-prime the initial production run. I have no doubt that ultimately if you built a generic Black Motor / M7 / K10 / with Scottish Variants new build, the series would ultimately be less than building each independently, but the problem would be getting such a project off the ground without a wealthy backer willing to fund construction of the first one.

Tom

 

Remember latest UK law... bribes are illegal anywhere world wide. But commission payments are ok.

 

Didn't the availability of a suitable boiler in excellent condition have a lot to do with that? You are assuming that a decision has been made which is one new build scheme vs. another. However in practice it was one new build with boiler extant vs. nothing at all.

Is that coffee I can smell?

 

Alas it did not prompt the hard "do we really need it" question but dare it be said, the rather soppy "wouldn't that be nice" one. IMHO there is a zilch need for further express locomotives on 25 mph heritage railways. In contrast there is a shortage, ranging from marked to acute, for medium sized machinery which can do the job at a reasonable cost in fuel and maintenance. Keeping costs in check is essential for the future survival of these lines.

The behemoths occupy valuable space and soak up financial resources which could be used for the construction of motive power more suited to the job it has to do.

 

Bradley gives boiler, firebox, cylinders and motion as standard between 700 goods, M7 and C8 class, while the K10 also shared all those parts except that the fireboxes had cross water tubes (and those were later removed). I'd imagine as well that large numbers of small items were also shared, e.g. injectors, clacks, whistles, chimneys, cab fittings, front cab window surrounds, buffers, couplings etc. All the Drummond tender classes tended to swap tenders around a bit, but a 3500 gallon version with 6'6"+6'6" or 7'+7' wheelbase would suit all three tender classes. So the really expensive bits could easily be shared between four classes without even thinking about the Scottish variants.

Tom

 

But getting back to 245...Anthony, at least one of us on here is interested to hear what was in that file!

Regarding 245 being painted for Oh What a Lovely War/Young Winston - if it was painted and used in the former, then the shots ended up on the cutting room floor! The only railway shots in it, filmed in Brighton station as noted (Brighton Council was very helpful in the filming generally) contained only LMR rolling stock, no locos, or indeed movement.

 

Me too Jamie; all the new build stuff was an entertaining diversion while we waited for Anthony to get back!

With regard "Young Winston", a quick trawl of YouTube for railway shots (admittedly not the most scientifically rigorous search method!) only showed a GWR 14xx, dressed up to be almost unrecognisable in armour plate, pulling a 16ton mineral wagon and a few others somewhere in Wales, masquerading as an armoured train in the Boer War. I couldn't find any shots of the M7.

With regard the 1982 Derby restoration of 245: Bradley only mentions that she was repainted at that time. When withdrawn, obviously she was still in working order though presumably pretty well knackered. Was any mechanical restoration carried out, or was it purely a repaint?

Tom

 

Sounds like some of the railway shots from Young Winston are missing from Youtube as I can recall a disguised 92203 featuring after the 1466 sequence, perhaps 245 was in the same scene as Black Prince ?.

 

As I say, not a rigorous search, so I may have missed some.

Tom

 

Ah that Young Winston 14xx rings a bell now - it was one of the 68-71 'exception that proves the rule' events on the steam ban. Somewhere down in S. Wales I believe.

 

Tempting. Very, very, tempting - especially as the output would be useful.

Tobbes

 

As the poem puts it "those days are gone away". It's a lack of "cold hard practicalities" not their presence which will bring about an empty trackbed with planning permission for development.

PH