Open-topped coaches

On the continent and in the US, there are a number of railways with open-topped coaches. They're used primarily in the summer season, but even where the climate is varied.

I'm surprised that we don't have them on any lines in the UK, after all, there are a handful of short UK railways who have used some wagons with basic seating in them. And they seem to always be very popular, despite the fact that the seating is very basic and not really designed for a trip of any great length.

Obviously most miniature railways <15" gauge have open coaches, indeed the 15" Ravenglass & Eskdale has a fine fleet of very comfortable open coaches, which frankly are the best way to see the countryside. I'm told that Romney hasn't any because of the limited clearances of overbridges/tunnels.

Tanfield did some nice conversions of some vans into covered accommodation - but has anyone thought of converting (perhaps bogie stock) wagons into open coaches for summer traffic? Are there too many HSE implications in conversions? Is there a concern about steam loco ash? (In which case, just run them behind diesels...)

I would have thought that it would be a really unique selling point for some lines offering something different - particularly those operating in scenic areas such as Swanage Railway (look how popular the open top buses are...) or even the Ffestiniog / WHR. Open-topped train trips through the countryside (as long as the rain holds off...) would surely be a fantastic new opportunity and reason to visit a railway. Could even have a BBQ on board...

 

Spark arresters would have to be very efficient! I recall Alan Bloom writing that he had to compensate a passenger at Bressingham for burning a hole in her dress when he opened the regulator injudiciously.

Something like the Zillertalbahn tourist coaches where there are two openable droplights per seating bay, is just about ideal.

P.H.

 

When did the main line companies abandon open top 4w wagons as suitable transport for the paying public? 1830s? 1840s? Didn't come back into fashion at all, no doubt largely due to the weather and inability to use all year round.

Some tourist railways from the outset have used open carriages and still do - but most if not all of these are narrow gauge (the usual suspects). Most of these don't really run in winter anyway, so

When "tourist" lounge cars have been built they've been fully enclosed observation cars, and a few of these have been preserved.

There are no ex-BR fully open coaches to preserve, so they would have to be new build.

There are Rocket and Lion replica open coaches available, but these are of low capacity as are the replica engines that would haul them.

If you want an open top experience, go hang out of a window (although this can be somewhat antisocial if you are with friends).

 

The Bristol Harbour Railway use open coaches/wagons - I think either new build or conversions - it seemed a very appropriate way to travel there, even though it was pouring with rain when I visited! (At least it wasn't overcrowded...)

Steve B

 

"I recall Alan Bloom writing that he had to compensate a passenger at Bressingham for burning a hole in her dress when he opened the regulator injudiciously."

I believe Ratty once had a similar experience, hence the current marshalling of such vehicles in the middle of trains, away from locos. The bridge at New Romney is certainly very tight, and don't they have other low ones?

 

"If you want an open top experience, go hang out of a window" That's not quite what I had in mind.

The experience on a mild day, in open air, is very pleasant. Why not have a fully open air coach? It could be either rostered marshalled away from the loco, or used on a diesel service. Diesel services sometimes are regarded as being a less exciting experience for the general public, so here's a way of re-marketing them as something different.

So, we have the few narrow/miniature lines that have "always" had them - but why has nobody thought of trying them on a larger railway? The fair weather season is long enough.

The experience of travelling in an open coach makes the ride a completely different product.

 

Suspect HMRI would have some serious reservations. Certainly a non-starter on any railway with a tunnel.

Roger

 

Yup, and for anyone who fancies a roof, there's usually the TOAD marshalled in the train as well.

It used to be the job of a small bogie wagon (still in use) and a 'private owner' one, which has been replaced by one in BHR black livery. I believe that the BHR is one of the few standard gauge lines that operate such a service.

There's a fairly significant overbridge on the line but people can generally see what they are getting themselves into.

 

Tunnels: Why would it be a problem with tunnels if it was diesel haulage (that combats the issue of smoke)? It seems to be fine on smaller railways (with smaller tunnels), and there'd be sufficient clearance between walls and coaches so not to be a problem, I'd have thought. It certainly doesn't appear to be an issue on the continent. I don't see why there'd be a real problem.

 

What I'm saying is - rather than guessing subjectively why it couldn't be done, has anyone actually ever investigated if it -could- be done?

 

I don't think so. They would be more concerned with sides, doors and seating than a roof. Several railways have operated 'passenger' trains with open wagons converted for the purpose and I know from experience that these are where HMRI's concerns lie. Middleton used to do it; and it had a tunnel.
I think the big problems come from two points already raised. Firstly, it is not all -weather stock and few railways can afford the luxury of having two sets of stock, one for fine and one for foul weather. Don't forget that, at 25mph, you effectively have a 25 mph wind in your face and it needs to be a warm day before this ceases to be unpleasant. Secondly, it is the very real possibility of the passenger getting covered in black sooty water or hotties ejected from the chimney. Spark arrestors certainly won't prevent the former. Joe Public and his family are very likely to be totally unaware of the risks they are taking by riding in an open carriage.

 

There's also the point that most standard gauge railways are more concerned with restoring the vehicles they have available to them, rather than creating entirely new designs. Afterall, most market themselves (to a greater or less degree) as heritage railways, and normally that heritage means the 1950s; or in some cases the 1930s or 1910s or 1880s; but it very rarely means the 1830s!

(Didcot and MOSI excepted...)

Tom

 

I've now found a couple of pics from a couple of years ago - it was a very wet day, but those who were traveling enjoyed it. I could see such services having a place on many railways, not necessarily for everyday services, but for certain specials. I can't see them being frightfully expensive to create.

Steve B

 

True, but I could very easily see Stepney shuttling backwards and forwards on the Ardingly line with such a train.

Steve B

 

You'd want to gauge demand and find suitable demand, cost it, develop a safety case for it, and then consider the fact that on a bad day you're likely to end up with an overcrowded covered section and deadweight in the form of one or more open carriages.

It's easy to say "take them on and off daily dependent on weather", but when you get up to standard gauge you would not believe how long shunting takes!

My personal thoughts: too much effort for too little tangible return - open carriages do not a USP make.

 

Agreed that many railways are aiming for a heritage service, but then Fish'n'chip specials on a DMU aren't an authentic way to experience rail travel of yesteryear. Nor are Mk 1s with an industrial saddle tank. It's another way to market a different way to experience the scenery of a heritage railway. Personally, I'd rather be in a non-authentic open top coach on a sunny day than being stuck in a yet another grim Mk 1 Open with melamine tables and kids screaming because it's too hot. What I'm gunning at is that there is surely an angle here for a commercial product for those lines that are happy to offer a non-authentic unique way of travel.

In terms of creating non-authentic ways of carriage, Tanfield have converted SR parcel wagons to coaches in relatively recent years, haven't they?

Petit train jeune is an example of a new build coach in the South of France. Pic here: The open carriage - Picture of Le Petit Train Jaune, Perpignan - TripAdvisor

The WHR have a lot of bogie wagons and have been used to carry bikes. Wonder if any thoughts for passenger conversion have crossed their minds? (Welsh weather does occasionally have a break in the rainclouds, from experience...) I could imagine though that the narrower clearances on that line could make it a non-starter, however.

 

What does cross the collective mind of the Welsh Highland, as I understand it, is to start to convert their opens to part opens with a glazed centre after the manner of the "Gladstone Car" on the WHHR. No doubt someone from the FR/WHR will correct me if I am wrong. Versatility is the principal requirement.

In my previous posting I mentioned the Zillertalbahn tourist coaches which have sixteen droplights which can be lowered on warm days or hauled right up on cold or wet ones. They also have steam heating making them very versatile indeed. As Mr. Punch puts it "That's the way to do it"!

P.H.

 

I read about the droplight-style coaches which look to be a great idea. They're not open-topped though, and don't give the extreme all-round view that I'm proposing. It's similar to the difference between having the roof down in a convertible car and having the windows down in a saloon.

There's a wonderful 1960s artist's impression in the Haresnape book "British Rail 1948-79 A journey by design" showing a proposal by one firm for a glass-roofed DMU for the Scottish branches - that would have been an interesting one had they been produced.

 

A non starter for widespread UK use in my opinion with the climate we have, the Ratty might have a few, but I bet the amount of days in recent years they have been full, you could count on on two hands, some NG lines that have coaches with open sides (best way I can describe them, having no windows), these are usually the last in the formation to fill up.

Would be great on a warm sunny summers days, but a lot of expense and weight for a vehicle that would be shunned by passengers 98% of the time.

 

The Zillertalbahn also marshalls in to the train, in the summer months, an open wagon or two with seats and it is very popular. I always try there first and then if there is no space go in one of the coaches. I am not the only one as you often find the wagons are full and the coaches fairly empty.