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Swithland Steam Gala 26th – 28th April 2013

Discussion in 'Galas and Events' started by Bifur01, Oct 29, 2012.

  1. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    True...

    Tom
     
  2. Talyllyn07

    Talyllyn07 Member

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    If your referring to my comment suggesting I know something then, yes I know however not my place to say anything. I still can't honestly see what our preserved railways or the HRA have to learn from the incident. Than simply reminding everyone to check twice do once... and it is still my firm belief that only the HRA need to know the outcome of the GCR's investigation in the first instance then decide whether its worth perusing further...
     
  3. Talyllyn07

    Talyllyn07 Member

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    sorry for double quoting! a HTC moves in mysterious ways! :p
     
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  4. redstaffy

    redstaffy New Member

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    I can't see that any railway would publish anything official until the investigation had been completed and any outcome decided to ensure an unbiased verdict
    Surely in our country we still have the "innocent until proven guilty" ethic and the outcome will be decided by the relevant people and any corrective actions will be put in place and if any disciplinary actions are deemed appropriate they will be carried out as per the railways policy
    I'm sure the findings will be published somewhere in the future so we can all learn from this incident
     
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  5. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    I agree in principle. However, unlike most such investigations, the video makes it crystal clear what happened. How it came to happen is another matter.

    There are now over 95,000 YouTube hits on this video. For that reason alone this matter will not go away. A great deal of egg is on face (whatever happened this remains true) so great (and quick) efforts will be needed both (a) to clean said egg off and (b) to make certain it does not splatter others. Best wishes in that.

    Paul H.
     
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  6. Talyllyn07

    Talyllyn07 Member

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    Paul,

    Im intreaged, imagine you had seen this video without seeing all the information on here, and now watch that video. Is it crystal clear what happened in your eyes? The only thing you can say which is crystal clear to anyone watching is a locomotive came of the rails. And that's it! As you can't say that the points were against it (because the lever in the box could be set correctly but the linkage is broken) you can't say that the driver had a SPAD, but you can't say he didn't. You can say that the 'right away' was given, or not. You can't even say that the signalman was in his box...

    As for issuing a report please see my post above #202
     
  7. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    If you look very carefully you will see there is at least one person inside the box. After the derailment someone is seen moving around apparently making a telephone call which would be logical enough in the circumstances. Unless you are privy to some information which I am not, whether or not it was a pure error on the driver's part or jointly with the signaller is speculative.

    My point is principally that with modern telecommunications this matter has a life of its own. We are not in 1950 when the telephone was still a touch daring with many rural exchanges non-mechanised. Either the RAIB is to be involved so people can be asked to back off (via the YouTube posting I would suggest) or, if not, the railway ought to issue a statement saying what their general course of action will be. Perhaps this has now been done. Hopefully it has.

    P.H.
     
  8. Talyllyn07

    Talyllyn07 Member

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    RAIB IS NOT BLOODY INTERESTED...

    Can't you find another railway accident to harp on about? Maybe you can decide what Belgium can do regarding the chemical train de-railment instead? After all a change is as good as a rest...
     
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  9. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    It takes two to tango Talyllyn07! If you are right, you may well be, then it is entirely up to the GCR to say they are looking into the circumstances. Hopefully they will do so.
     
  10. Talyllyn07

    Talyllyn07 Member

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    I knew the RAIB were not interested when I first posted as such!

    Can this not now be closed as its not benefiting the GCR and just plainly going around in circles...
     
  11. Royalscot

    Royalscot New Member

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    RAIB ought to be interested, insomuch as the accident looks very much like gross incompetence from a number of staff. It may not fit their criteria for an immediate investigation but the public need to be assured these railways are safe.

    The GCR has a history of minor accidents like buffer stop collisions, runaway trains, and other minor incidents from the rumours that are doing their rounds at the moment.

    The question is with the amount of public interest, whether these governing bodies are fit for purpose. It might be worth putting in a freedom of information to find out exactly how these heritage railways are governed, the checks and balances, so the public can be assured these are not cowboy outfits.
     
  12. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    As far as I am concerned I'm happy to.

    Paul H.
     
  13. Talyllyn07

    Talyllyn07 Member

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    Not trying to say I know better than you here but... RAIB are there not to point the finger of blame.

    Once again can those who don't know enough about a authority and workings of the railway industry please do their research first before typing. It may hold more weight if it looks like you know what your talking about.

    Cheers
     
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  14. Royalscot

    Royalscot New Member

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    I think you misinterpreted what I said, my fault as it was not especially written very clearly.

    Correct, RAIB or not there to apportion blame or prosecute, but to quote they are there:


    To improve the safety of the railways by:
    • Carrying out investigations to determine the causes and circumstances of railway accidents and incidents.
    • Identifying any other factors that contributed to the event or made the outcome worse.
    • Publishing investigation reports containing details of the investigation.
    • Making evidence based safety recommendations, to reduce the likelihood and mitigate such causes and circumstances recurring in the future.
    • Increasing awareness of how railway accidents happen through effective liaison, discussion, and dissemination of intelligence from investigation initiatives.
    • Improving national and international co-operation in railway accident investigations.
    To satisfy the general public, railway users, and the railway industry that rail accidents are being properly investigated in an efficient and timely manner.

    RAIB was set up after the Ladbroke Grove train crash. Cullen wasn't satisfied at the time the railways or the HSE were capable, either through objectivity or resouces to investigate themselves. While the incident doesn't fall directly into RAIB's remit, there are 0bviously significant safety failings in this instance. School boys errors if you will.

    The 2003 Transport and Safety act does provide for: "RAIB to investigate other accidents and incidents occurring on railway property that are or may be relevant to the operation of the railway, and where the Branch believes that there may be significant safety lessons to be learnt which could improve the safety of railways."

    There has been several high profile incidents of late on heritage railways. The point is volunteers are not protected from the normal whistleblowing laws, CIRAS doesn't exist for them, many heritage lines hide behind Safety Management Statements that are not even obvious to the volunteers let alone members of the public. Even the ORR is unhappy with the number of incidents at Heritage lines.

    How can members of the public be assured these lines are safe, especially as they use vintage equipment and (for the most part) volunteer labour? After this shocking incident, caught on camera for the world to see, isn't it time the authorities upped their game on some of these lines and the GCR came clean what actually happened to assure the public? This should also be of interest to volunteers as surely they want to be protected from serious injury especially when taking part in a hobby?
     
  15. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    It's an intriguing set of posts by Royalscot. Joined the Forum back in 2005 but has nver posted until this thread. His six posts seem to all be along a similar theme and generally aimed at the GCR and incompetence, mismanagement and a possible cover up although his last post has widened the scope slightly to include heritage railways generally. I wonder what his/her agenda is?

    Two of his points need qualifying, though:-
    1) The ORR(HMRI) recently stated that the heritage railway movement has much improved in the last 12 months and they are no longer 'unhappy'. and
    2) CIRAS is available to all, whether paid staff or volunteer, big railway or heritage railway.
     
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  16. Talyllyn07

    Talyllyn07 Member

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    Whilst I agree with all of your post I don't agree with your last paragraph.

    I also have no intention in reflecting on past events or rumours as nothing good can come from judging a railway upon rumours alone.

    During my past 13 years in the industry I have witnessed most things upon preserved railways from passengers slipping and injuring themselves in so far as speed limits were exceeded to get the passenger to a more suitable location for the Ambulance to meet us, to having signals SPAD's, passenger train de-railments, points wrongly set and buffer stop collisions.

    Whilst all of this may worry some my opinion is that whilst incidents WILL happen it occurs to me that it is more important for the railway concerned to react in the right way after the event.
     
  17. Royalscot

    Royalscot New Member

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    I dunno, what's yours? I'm asking questions, none of the answers are very forthcoming and it would be interesting to hear other people's opinions.

    Let's get one thing clear, I haven't accused anyone of anything in this thread. We all love trains, and especially heritage ones. There's no wish to shut them down, there's no desire to see anyone out of a job, there's no project to see them wrapped in red tape. But if I'm travelling on one of these lines I want to know if I'm safe. If I'm working on one of them, I want to know if I'm protected by appropriate procedure and won't end up with a life threatening injury, or hurting someone else because they or I haven't had appropriate training.

    Here is a video where something has clearly gone wrong, we clearly can't get answers, but it doesn't mean people don't have questions, and/or don't have the right in a free western democracy or as a customer of these lines to ask them whether you like it or not.

    Whether I have used my account is really none of your business and I've been a reader for many years. This particular incident has got my interest because I was thinking of volunteering for a heritage line and want to know I am safe and do not wish to be involved in incidents that threaten my freedom.

    If you have a problem with that, may I suggest you have an agenda.

    On a lighter note, thanks for the answer on the CIRAS question, at least that is *some* assurance.
     
  18. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Now that has confused my simple mind!
    I've a few more years under my belt and I too have been involved first hand with all these, and more, on heritage railways. However, I'm sure that, if I was working on the big railway, i'd have experienced far, far more. I don't think either the big railway or heritage railways are essentially unsafe.
     
  19. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I've no agenda on this subject at all. I'm as interested as the next person to know what actually happened. I have my thoughts on it but I'll keep them to myself. As someone intimately involved with heritage railways, no doubt I'll get to know all the details in due course but they will remain confidential unless they are put in the publc domain by others. One thing I'm fairly certain of, though, and that is there will be no cover up. The grapevine is too effiicient for that to happen.
     
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  20. Talyllyn07

    Talyllyn07 Member

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    Sorry for some reason it didn't include the post I was quoting... but it was Royalscots post not yours :)

    Indeed I quite agree, but whilst some may see experiencing all that in just 13 years (remembering how many weeks a year a volunteer generally does!) And I didn't add a runaway to that list... however I'm sure you would agree with my comments that it doesn't matter what happens (I don't include certain incident on a 15" line recently (clue: peeling paint on the dome...)) necessarily its what is done in the face of the public concerned at the time and the follow up inquiries which makes a railway a good professional organisation.

    To Royalscots post and regarding his worries about visiting a preserved line and being safe, I think I quote Tolkien by saying 'its a very dangerous thing stepping out of your house Frodo'
     
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