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Bluebell Motive Power

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Orion, Nov 14, 2011.

  1. andrewtoplis

    andrewtoplis Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate that hiring in another 9F when your own sits idle makes a powerful statement, but I doubt that the Bluebell wanted one specifically when they went looking to hire a large engine. There are not that many locomotives available to hire full stop, even before you start thinking of budget limits, timescale, ideal power class and (way down the list) 'authenticity'. The 9F might be what fitted the bill best from what was available at the time!
     
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  2. 45076

    45076 Member

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    Excellent news!
     
  3. dan.lank

    dan.lank Member

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    So do we know if that plan to work on all 3 standard tanks together is dead now? Can certainly see why it would be, at least for a few years!
     
  4. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I think that story is urban myth category, I've certainly never heard any of the workshop staff talk about it. The two factors that count against it are (1) the three engines are owned by three different owning groups, so it would take some coordination to get all three lined up with finance and manpower at the same time and (2) I think the workshop would be very tight for space to have all three under overhaul simultaneously. Not to mention if you overhauled all three simultaneously, ten years later you'd lose all three simultaneously, which wouldn't be ideal!

    Ps having written that, on Monday there will probably be an announcement that all three are off to LNWR Crewe...

    Tom
     
  5. 73129

    73129 Part of the furniture

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    Surley 80151 would be more desirable loco to have in steam again. I'm surprised 75027 and 80064 haven't been thrown in to the mix?
     
  6. Paul42

    Paul42 Part of the furniture

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    From the Bluebell Yahoo group " Both the 4 tank( 80151) and the 9F appear to have fireboxes with one or maybe two boiler tickets available, and are probably in good mechanical shape, before they join 75027 and 80064 in the boilerahop/welding queue".
     
  7. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    75027 and 80064 are both pretty tired, and in addition 80064 isn't Bluebell owned, which complicates any overhaul. As for 75027, don't forget she has been on the railway for 45 years and has worked pretty intensively in that time.

    The large loco situation actually doesn't look too bad about four years from now - 73082, 847, 541, 32424, 34059 all likely to be in traffic by ca. 2017 - 2018. The issue is getting from here to there, but starting overhauls right now on any new locos doesn't actually help the situation; we need to finish those five (likely to be in the order 847 this year, 73082 and maybe 541 next year, 34059 after that and 32424 after that).

    Tom
     
  8. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    It will be interesting to see whether 75027, 80064 and 80151 are suffering from, what I call, Standard 4 boiler lurgy, ie new boiler barrels are required due to corrosion.
     
  9. 73129

    73129 Part of the furniture

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    Is this due to the design of the boiler or the metal used to make the boiler barrel?
     
  10. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    Certainly not the design. Material, the jury is out on that one, but the locos were built at various works. One could blame storage at Barry, but other classes of loco were not affected as much.
    It is interesting to look at 75069's boiler at Bridgnorth. The bottom half of the barrel is very badly corroded. Now, that loco was out of Barry early. The reason for the corrosion is that the loco was stored outside for a number of years at the SVR and water has got into the insulation material beneath the cladding.
     
  11. Learner

    Learner New Member

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    I'm attempting to understand this weekend's loco roster. Is a P tank really operating a full line schedule on its own? And if so then what will the stock consist of? I assume that 1638 will be hauling the Bulleid/Mark 1 rake.
     
  12. 45076

    45076 Member

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    According to the "Public Train Information" page updated yesterday, 1638 is indeed back in service operating the Bullied/Mk1s today, Saturday and Sunday.
    On Saturday and Sunday P 323 is shown on 6 heritage coaches??
     
  13. 5944

    5944 Resident of Nat Pres

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  14. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Technically, the dining set is 5 tons over the limit for the H class. Worth remembering the H is considerably smaller than the E4 or the C class; for example, nearly 2,000lbf less Tractive Effort than the E4, a smaller boiler, 200 gallons less water and significantly, lower adhesion. So the dining set used to be OK when we only ran to Kingscote, but not now the gradients have steepened and the line lengthened to East Grinstead. That said, the load limits are also set on the basis of a loco near to overhaul, needing a washout, with poor coal, greasy rail conditions etc, so I'd expect for the sake of five tons, that occasional exemptions would be allowed, especially as the time allowed between Kingscote and East Grinstead is relatively generous.

    The PTI page currently doesn't agree with the STN, though the STN has come with a caveat about further changes are expected, which might refer to whether the U-Boat is fit to run or not. But right now, the plan is:

    Saturday

    Set A - 5 Bulleids / Mark 1s + the GN Saloon (which I assume is a private booking, as it is not being advertised for public use) with the 9F
    Set B - 3 Maunsells + 100 seater with the two P class locos
    GA lunch time charter with the H class - since we don't normally run the GA on a Saturday lunchtime, I assume that is also a private booking.
    GA evening diner - 9F

    Sunday

    Set A - 5 Bulleids / Mark 1s + 1503 LNWR Observation car - 9F
    Set B - 3 Maunsells + 100 seater - the two P class locos
    GA lunchtime train - H class.

    I assume on that basis that 1638 still isn't fit for traffic - I certainly haven't heard anything definitive.

    Tom
     
  15. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I can see the platform scales being used to weigh the passengers onto the train if weight is that critical!
     
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  16. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    With the Golden Arrow, it's not so much the passengers that need weighing as the wine...

    But being more serious, a limit is a limit - if they had no meaning, Stepney would be taking 6 Mark 1s up and down the line. The key is knowing under what assumptions they are set (I think ours are based quite conservatively) and therefore when it is prudent to allow a little leeway and when not.

    Tom
     
  17. skeggycat

    skeggycat New Member

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    Jamessquared wrote

    Yes Saturday is a private booking, and the next and last one for some time, due to the passenger demands for additional carriages, will be 7th July for the Camelot Society.
     
  18. dan.lank

    dan.lank Member

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    I did suspect that urban myth may be the case regarding overhauling 3 standard tanks at once!
     
  19. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    The 2 P's with four on was an interesting roster on Saturday. The 1200 train from EG was heaving, with standing passengers but fortunately it's downhill to SPk. Travelled on the 1600 return and that was more of a challenge. Steady progress and the final leg starting out of Kingscote was quite a pull for the little ones. It was slow on the 1 in 75 steepening to 1 in 55 through Imberhorne Cutting. That particular stretch will be one to watch on wet autumn days with anything that's not powerful or sure footed. Someone will have to do their sums carefully on the rostering especially if public demand leads to longer trains. Pictures are of 323 and 178 taking water at Sheffield Park and 92212 (substituting for 1638) arriving at Horsted Keynes.
     

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  20. SE&CR_red_snow

    SE&CR_red_snow New Member

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    Double-headed P tanks are quite capable of handling 4x Mk.1s on the gradients. The limiting factor isn't oomph, it's water capacity and having the time to refill the tanks. Having said that, they are very vocal and tend to throw fire, which some Drivers find off-putting. No red snow = no go. It's just the way they are.

    Regarding the weight limit for the H class this only goes to prove that theories and numbers are no substitute for real-world experience. Yes the H is theoretically smaller and less powerful than the E4 or C, however it is a very free-steaming and economical engine. In terms of boiler capacity I'd have thought that sustained output would be the key issue, in which case Horsted Keynes to Kingscote is far more of a challenge than Kingscote to East Grinstead. Adhesion is also an important factor but again the H does all right leaving Horsted Keynes. The 1-in-55 through Imberhorne Cutting really isn't very long and we get a run-up at it, so provided the sanders are working I'm not sure there's an issue. Especially as the Golden Arrow is never the first train of the day, so other workings will have cleaned the worst of the slime off the rails before it appears.

    There is a desire not to wear out locos like the H, C and E4 prematurely by working them too hard. That's fine when there are plenty of options available, but at the moment there aren't. I guess it depends which is more expensive - increased maintenance of the in-house Class 2-3 fleet, and possibly withdrawal after 7 or 8 years rather than 10, or paying the daily hire fees for the 9F.

    This does raise some interesting questions re. the validity of the Bluebell's ongoing obsession with mid-range motive power on cost grounds. Are the smaller locos really such good value given their lack of power margin? At face value the costs of overhauling and maintaining a Standard 4 are much higher than, say, the C or E4. Put them all on 5 coach trains, though, where the 4MT has a substantial margin and the C and E4 are working much harder in relative terms - what happens to the figures then? Perhaps these locos look like more of a performance bargain than they really are, because a true comparison hasn't been made. Has it been assumed that a Class 4 will always work 6-car trains? What happens if it is assumed that for 50% of the time it will work 4 or 5 coach trains?
     
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