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Bluebell Motive Power

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Orion, Nov 14, 2011.

  1. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    The figures change depending on who is interpreting them :)

    Why can't people spell 'withdrawal'?
     
  2. SE&CR_red_snow

    SE&CR_red_snow New Member

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    Corrected!
     
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  3. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Whilst it may be a nice problem to have, the potential for trains to become quite full with the opening of the EG link may lead to the Bluebell having to take a fresh approach to its motive power and train length. If last Saturday's 1200 train was anything to go by, 4 coaches was not enough. Mind you, allowing a block booking of one coach for a private party was perhaps the tipping point. Suddenly the good folk of East Grinstead have a ready means of visting Sheffield Gardens in the season without the hassle of driving along Sussex roads which on the best of days, is slow and quite a pain.
     
  4. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    We could debate the policy at length and over and over (and no doubt we will on many afternoons in the lobby!) But I do think there is a bit of 20:20 hindsight going on with people both assuming that we could accurately predict passenger numbers (we couldn't) and do something about it (there was no money for the last few years - the annual PLC turnover has been flat over that time, which means a real-terms cut; and most donation especially over the last two or three years has gone to the extension, not towards loco projects).

    For example, over the last five or six years, we have outshopped the C, the H and the two P class locos, which between them can take three four-coach trains, or two six-coach trains. Not ideal, but enough to run the service, albeit with some overcrowding. Had we spent the same money and resources on a big engine, it is likely that over that time, we could only have afforded to do one loco, say 75027. And however many coaches you hung behind it, it could only pull one train at a time! So demonstrably, concentrating on smaller engines means we are in a position where we can still run the service - just. If we had concentrated on larger engines, we'd currently need to have at least one extra engine on hire over and above the 9F.

    As for the hire fees of the 9F: I've said it before on this thread, that if you looked at the true cost to us of restoring an equivalent loco (probably middling 6 figures if you include staff cost); and hypothecate that over the number of days service you anticipate in ten years (say high hundreds) then the hire fee for the 9F looks pretty competitive. I certainly don't believe it is the "money down the drain" that some people seem to think.

    Tom
     
  5. collet1930

    collet1930 New Member

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    Although the hire fees look competitive I'v never know the bluebell to be in such a state with its locomotive fleet in the 40 years that I've been a member.Ignoring the EG extention they have as you say outshopped both the C and Archibald but both have come out of traffic for various reasons.I like the small locos but now as I reported at xmas you are in the big league now with the likes of the SVR, NYMR,WSR etc. Every railway suffers from lack of engines from time to time and coaling/costing must be balanced with what the paying public want.Dont turn EG into a dinosaur because the locos going there cant pull 6 coaches comfortable.If you need to hire in class 4's or above as a short term measure I'm all for it but lets not let the public down before we even get started.We have worked too hard for so long to get to EG, lets not spoil it.
     
  6. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I don't disagree, I'm simply pointing out that being able to see a looming crisis, and being able to do anything about it (especially over the last few years) are two different things! In my opinion, without the small loco policy over the last five to six years, we'd now probably only have one or two locos in traffic. Equally, if things carry on the way they are, the small loco policy will have to change. I don't see those two statements as mutually contradictory, but I appreciate some do!

    As for loco crisis more generally: it is not just us. Almost every major league steam line in the country is at, or close to, crisis point - hence the number of steam railways that make regular use of diesels to meet the passenger numbers, even while they have steam locos sitting unrestored in sheds and sidings. Sadly, I think far too many enthusiasts are blind to the fact that if things carry on the way they are, in ten years steam will be a rarity on many lines, bought out just for high days and holidays.

    Tom
     
  7. Bramblewick

    Bramblewick Member

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    One thing which does surprise me is that the Crompton is not being used on passenger trains in combination with one of the smaller steam locos, thus giving a nominally 'steam' service on which the diesel does most of the work. While it's available, why not double head it with one of the Ps on the heavier trains? Even 'Baxter' or 'Stepney' could be used to pilot the 33 on passenger services.
     
  8. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Hmmm....

    We could always use the smaller engines to take a heavier load as far as Kingscote, and then use Baxter to bank them up the last little bit into East Grinstead!

    Tom
     
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  9. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Don't suggest banking trains or someone will want to start a new build project for Big Bertha or, heaven forbid, the LNER Garratt!
     
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  10. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    An interesting debate. As a distant admirer of the Bluebell but not a regular, my crowded trip on the line on Saturday was inconvenient but easily outweighed by the uniqueness of the locos in use, the good quality restored rolling stock, the attention to detail on the line, the beauty of the station restoration and the interest and obvious pride of the staff. I have to say that if it's really true that the company has been a bit taken aback by the interest that the extension has generated then I'd be amazed. As I said in the earlier post, to have slightly more people than is comfortable - and the narrowness of the platform at East Grinstead illustrates a potential problem with crowds getting off and different crowds getting on - is a nice position to be in. As for the loco fleet, it doesn't matter if there are short trains, you just need three services when it's busy.
     
  11. 45076

    45076 Member

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    To be fair to the Bluebell the four largest engines that have a current boiler ticket are all out of service at the same time(473 592 1638 34059).If these were available then there would be no problem running two six coach sets.Its just unfortunate to lose them all at once.
     
  12. Neil_Scott

    Neil_Scott Part of the furniture

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    With the exception of the NYMR, which other major railways are using diesels regularly?
     
  13. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    OK, the first few major lines I looked at:

    The Swanage are operating 30 days in June, and 24 of them have diesels operating at least some of the service.
    The Severn Valley have 26 days out of 30 in June in which diesels operate at least some of the service.
    The NYMR as you say use diesels on their regular service.
    The GCR have 15 operating days in June, with diesels on at least 6 (maybe more - there are five days of special events, in which the traction isn't specified).
    The GWSR operate on 22 days, of which 20 involve diesel traction.

    That's just a really quick trawl, and just covers what is planned to be used; it doesn't take account of use of diesels as unplanned replacement for steam.

    Tom
     
  14. Bean-counter

    Bean-counter Part of the furniture

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    You can add West Somerset except for off peak and North Norfolk Railway too.

    On the NYMR, we tend to use diesel on early and late trains to shorten the crew days/move back lighting up & forward disposal times (and some crews would prefer longer days and all steam!) or to supplement to service to the intermediate "Red" level. Then there is standby, fore-risk and to top and tail to speed operations at Whitby if necessary.

    Steven
     
  15. Neil_Scott

    Neil_Scott Part of the furniture

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    I suspect that all of those are using diesels to keep the diesel people happy and to give them a chance to run their locomotives as well as using diesel multiple units for off-peak services rather than being indicative of a 'crisis'.
     
  16. SE&CR_red_snow

    SE&CR_red_snow New Member

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    Yes, hindsight is a wonderful thing. But looking back also enables us to identify where, in the past, we may not have looked forward well enough!

    The justification for the small-to-medium engine policy was primarily cost-based. It's been argued that the mid-range engines in particular are good value for money operationally. However they also get worked a lot harder relative to their size. If the restoration costs, G/O to withdrawal lifespan and maintenance costs in service have all been tabulated based on the Class 2 and 3 locos pulling circa 140 tons, and the Class 4 locos pulling circa 210 tons all the time, the comparison may not be valid. And nor, therefore, the conclusions drawn from it. Class 4s can be stepped down onto 4 or 5 coach trains, Class 2s and 3s cannot be stepped up onto 5 or 6 coach trains. We don't need to run every loco on its notional limit all of the time.

    As for the number of locomotives available to haul trains, when was the last time the two P tanks were both running, but on their own on different carriage sets? They're normally either pulling something lightweight on their own (an Autumn Tints special with the Obo, for example) or else they're double heading to cover for something bigger. So - big train double headed = could be one bigger loco instead, small train = only one P tank required anyway.

    With this in mind the real lack of foresight was in bowing to commercial pressure to have 323 and 55 available for the Anniversary celebrations. Yes it was nice to have them running, but no it wasn't worth jeopardizing our long term prospects just for 48 hours of publicity. I'm not convinced that the time spent on restoring and subsequently maintaining both of these engines has, overall, been less than overhauling a Class 4 would have been. Yes, Stepney was a rapid turnaround job, but we've been paying for it ever since, and it's now limited to "rolling headboard" status. So, in other words, it's added precisely nothing to the "locos available to pull trains" pool.

    As a manager would undoubtedly say, we are where we are. But stupidity is doing the same thing again and again and expecting the outcome to change. We're clearly in a mess, so let's look at the evidence, question the assumptions, and set about re-writing the rules accordingly.
     
  17. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Who knows. You asked "which other major lines are using diesels regularly" and the answer is "most of them". Plus I doubt you could justify using a diesel on, for example, 26 out of 30 days as just something done to "keep the diesel people happy". Far more likely it indicates a lack of steam motive power...

    Tom
     
  18. Neil_Scott

    Neil_Scott Part of the furniture

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    I think it's a good use of the DMU by the SVR for a service that's designed for it. Anyway, I don't quite agree with your interpretation that other major lines are suffering from major steam locomotive shortages simply because they are using diesel power.
     
  19. Kje7812

    Kje7812 Part of the furniture

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    Jamessquared, I would just like to point out that the SVR timetable A's Diesel turn is an addition, not a replacement of a steam turn. Go back to last year, it was just a two set service which maybe ok for the Bluebell but not the Valley (it offered very little flexibility to passengers who if they had missed the first train had not much of their money's worth out of the day). Also this turn is currently under review for next year. Personally, the time of year it is used at probably doesn't justify another steam engine in use and to me not really a mainline diesel, certainly not a type 3 or 4. Using the DMU to me for this service is more sensible (though there may be crew issues)
     
  20. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Hmmm - the front page of the SVR website does currently say "an amazing steam-powered day out" in big letters, which is clearly only part true!

    But in any case, this isn't about the SVR specifically, but a more general point about the heritage scene in general. We (the whole community I mean) like to play up our credentials in recreating the steam age. But of the country's major heritage lines, how many can truly say they are in a stronger position for steam motive power now than they were, say, 10 years ago? Not many I'd suggest. The Bluebell position is very clear, because there is a long thread in which I and others have set out what the policy is, what the reality is, and people can look for the gaps between policy and reality and debate why those gaps exist. But if there was an active SVR motive power thread, or NYMR thread, or GCR thread, or for many other lines detailing the motive power situation, would it actually look any more rosy? I'd doubt it, and that is why I believe (coming back to my original point) that there is a drip-drip crisis of standard gauge steam motive power, with each year just a bit worse than the year before. It's just a bit more explicit on the Bluebell, in part because of this thread.

    Tom
     

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