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Bluebell Motive Power

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Orion, Nov 14, 2011.

  1. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

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    hi tom,

    so far as the Bullied Pacifics are concerned, ive a copy of the BR testing section's report, when a Bullied Pacific was extensively tested both with a boiler with thermic syphons and one without. there wasnt any appreciable difference between the 2 boilers so far as steaming was concerned. if it makes the firebox repairs on the Bullieds easier and cheaper leave off the syphons that always seem to cause problems and very costly repairs.

    i get the feeling (but hate to say this) that the Bluebell doesnt repair/restore it's locos to the same high standard as some other railways. an example might be the excellent standard of work done on the IW Steam Railway at Havenstreet... with new boilers for the Terriers which regularly haul 6 coaches and part of the line is quite steeply graded. their Terriers are finely tuned and they get the very best out of them and are prepared to stump up the cash for new boilers when required. the Bluebell now needs to direct far more resources into their loco repair budget now the extension is completed, and forget about daft ideas of ardingly etc. some of the Bluebell rolling stock is in an appaling state eg the LBSCR Directors Saloon which is of considerable historic interest. it seems to me that the only really high standard job currently in progress at Sheffield Park is the H2 Atlantic BEACHY HEAD. i know that when the Dukedog visited the SVR a couple of years ago they werent too impressed with the loco's condition, and that when E4 BIRCH GROVE visited the IW Steam Railway first visit they werent very impressed that the westinghouse pump system wasnt working properly and the loco had to be double headed. i had a ride behind PORT LINE when she was on the Bluebell and the valve timing was horrendous!

    cheers,
    julian
     
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  2. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Some serious allegations there regarding workmanship at the Bluebell there. Do you have proof?
     
  3. A1X

    A1X Well-Known Member

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    Of course if you wanted to restore the LBSCR Saloon the Bluebell will be delighted to hear of your funding plans which have no bearing on the current maintenance / overhaul schedule and funds. Or is it easier to sit and snipe behind an anonymous username?

    I don't recall many people claiming the Met coaches were "appaling" (or even appalling) when they were providing the backbone of the Met 150 trains in January...

    As said above, I find your lack of proof disturbing.
     
  4. andrewtoplis

    andrewtoplis Well-Known Member

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    Jma1009 your comments are not fair, I say this as an ex-Bluebell loco volunteer and current IWSR one. The condition of Bluebell locomotives in my experience was excellent; I remember others in the loco dept comparing them favourably with other lines they worked on. Thanks for the positive comments about the IWSR locos, the staff work very hard to keep them that way and when W11 returns and 41298 steams we will have a splendid fleet.

    Edit I fired Birch Grove on its second IWSR visit and it seemed fine to me.
     
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  5. Paul42

    Paul42 Part of the furniture

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    I spoke to a SVR member who had carried some scheduled work on the Dukedog, when it visited (while on a train hauled by it ).He said the only wrong was the valve settings which he had adjusted. Since it would be so diferent from their others locos it was not a suprise.He also said they would like to keep it!.
     
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  6. cct man

    cct man Part of the furniture

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    Well I am going to be accused of Bluebell bashing again because what young Julian has been saying IMHO is spot on though I am no Engineer.

    As everyone is aware, every spare penny in the last few years has gone into the NEP,,and budgets for other departments have been cut to the bone resulting in the work shop staff having to make do and mend

    Sometimes, others such as Ian Bowskill and Chris are blinded by their love for their Railway , and as a result cannot see the wood for the trees.

    Again well said Julian for having the courage to speak out and tell it how it really is. I now think that those who "huff and puff" the loudest are those that sit on their ar**s and do nothing to help, physically or financially .

    Regards
    Chris:
     
  7. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Oh dear, where do we start...

    With regard the Dukedog, it had P&V work done at Bridgnorth during its visit there. This was fully reported at the time on the Bluebell website and elsewhere; in exchange for doing the work, the SVR could use it for their gala. It made sense to do at Bridgnorth, as I recall, because the SVR had suitable tools to carry out the work with the cylinders in situ, whereas I think the cylinders would have had to be removed to have carried out the work at SP.

    With regard budgets: it's simply not true that the extension has taken every spare penny - the funding for that was an entirely separate fundraising effort. Money at SP has been tight, but that is because trading conditions have been tight, not because of the extension. The extension has opened up the possibility of a major leap in revenue from what was a static situation for the last few years.

    With regard carriages - it might be true that on the IoWSR they haul 6 coach sets, but 6 four wheelers isn't quite the same load as 6 modern bogie coaches, is it? Currently we have, I think, 14 pre-grouping carriages and 7 SR-designed carriages operational, which is probably the biggest vintage fleet we have ever had. And the condition of some of those carriages is evidently so appalling that they were let loose with no additional work or modification on London Underground.

    Yes, the loco situation in particular is pretty tight, though I think there are grounds for optimism on a lot of fronts. I could mention that we have run a steam passenger service for 53 years, running over 45,000 annual loco miles in around 250 days per year with a fleet that is in the majority more than 100 years old, so presumably the workshop staff have some clue what they are doing. But what do I know? - I guess I am just one of those people who "huff and puff" the loudest and sit on my ar*e doing nothing to help physically or financially...

    Tom
     
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  8. A1X

    A1X Well-Known Member

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    "I'm no engineer but I know someone I agree with is right despite the lack of evidence"

    What both you and Julian are apparently alleging is that the railway was knowingly operating in an unsafe way. Unless you have some pretty powerful evidence in your favour I'd suggest you would be well advised to keep schtum.
     
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  9. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Don't you think its possible though that some of the money donated for the extension would otherwise have been donated to the line for other projects? Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticising the decision to do the extension or any of the rest of the policy: I'm not qualified to do so, but it does occur to me that other projects may find things a little easier now.

    Maybe you should have a "funding for finishing the stock needed to run the extension" drive next [grin].
     
  10. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I did wonder about that, but I don't think the evidence bears it out.

    For example, the Trust income has risen from £727k in 2010 to £1,489k in 2012. The vast bulk of that increase represents money that went into the extension (I think something like £800k last year), but the "core" income that is available for other projects has held up (remembering that such income is always a bit up and down). Also, the Trust income doesn't represent all the income available for loco projects, for example money raised by supporting groups doesn't necessarily flow via the Trust if those groups are themselves indepenedent bodies. So I don't think the evidence points to a large scale drop off in donations to loco projects, but rather a base level that has then increased with donations to the NEP.

    Tom
     
  11. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Given your inability to spell BULLEID correctly, I do wonder how much notice we should take of the test of your post. Smacks of someone with a major axe to grind rather than a balanced appraisal of Bluebell locos and rolling stock.
     
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  12. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    The Met coaches were in good condition when I rode them on the underground and all the people I spoke to were full of praise so I agree with you on this one.
     
  13. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Blinded? Sure it's not you that's blinded by a dislike of the Bluebell? Many railways have had a motive power shortage at some time or another. NYMR, NNR, SVR and NVR to name but four. Does this mean they all are guilty of poor workmanship? Of course it doesn't.
     
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  14. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    Moderator note - Can we not resort to personal comments please

    Sidmouth note - It is not just the Bluebell who is experiencing motive power problems . As I said in earlier posts SVR , NYMR have all had challenges to the size of their motive power fleet

    I actually think we are coming to the end of a golden age of preservation . Our future will see more use of Diesels , premium fares for steam just to cover the sheers costs of overhauling engines
     
  15. SE&CR_red_snow

    SE&CR_red_snow New Member

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    Tricky, this. While I'd agree with you that Bulleids are resource-hungry I think the two you've mentioned had very different issues surrounding them. 21C123 was all right until it went wrong, by which time it had already had a lot of time, effort and cash poured into it. Like running a 150,000 mile car, it isn't always easy judging when to quit. In retrospect we quit too late, but it's a tough call. The bigger money-pit always seemed to be 35027!

    34059, on the other hand, would have been a 'gold plated' project were it not for the firebox defects which emerged almost immediately post-rebuild. It's superb mechanically and, being a rebuilt pacific, I don't think it will spit out its middle engine as 21C123 did. At face value it looked like a good investment for the Traffic Department. I don't think anyone would deliberately have pursued its restoration and return to traffic knowing it had serious defects, so its subsequent failure falls in the "sh*t happens" category rather than showing any serious flaws in the long term strategic plan for the fleet. It seems odd that someone who was initially critical of those being wise after the event should go on to take that stance.

    At least both 21C123 and 34059 could, when operational, cover pretty much anything the Bluebell threw at them. As we've already established that hasn't been the case with 323, 178 and 55 which individually add very little value now we're running to East Grinstead. The Ps are either useful for very small trains (which could be covered by a mid-range engine like the H or E4) or when double-headed (directly deputising for a larger engine). 55 isn't really useful for anything. Yes the smaller engines are good fun, and one or two around the place is always nice. And yes running the H on a one-coach Autumn tints train would be wasteful. But how important is operational flexibility in comparison to the economic working of one-coach trains, of which we run very few?

    Boilers are certainly a key factor now. Although so are other major components like cylinder blocks - surely that's just a reflection of the time these locos have now spent running in preservation? Whether we go down the route of contracting to commercial boilersmiths or developing the in-house capability is a very big question. My main concern would be the relatively small number of boilersmiths with the capacity to do contract work. There's significant risk in putting all of one's eggs in one basket, in terms of waiting times, quality and price. On the other hand there isn't really the space at Sheffield Park to do it all ourselves. It may be that the best solution is to compromise:- employ 2 or 3 in-house boilersmiths and ensure they have enough space and enough work to stay fully occupied, and then contract out anything needed which is over and above what they can do. Hopefully the sums for this all add up, as it seems to be the position we're now occupying. I'm sure someone has done the maths!
     
  16. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    Your comments about 34059 are interesting. It suffered a bad firebox failure not long after entering service. I hope questions were asked about this failure and lessons learnt.
     
  17. cct man

    cct man Part of the furniture

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    Ian , with all due respect you came over as a man who thinks that the Bluebell can do no wrong.

    I never said anything about poor workmanship, just that they had to make do and mend rather than replace because of the lack of funds.

    Please try and read the posting through before replying.

    Regards
    Chris
     
  18. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    And with all due respect try reading my posts fully before posting. Nowhere have I ever said that the Bluebell can do no wrong.
     
  19. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    AFAIK they put 34059 back into traffic knowing that the firebox would not last the distance and it was planned that way. I'm more than happy to be corrected though. .
     
  20. brendan

    brendan New Member

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    If I remember correctly reading in a copy of the Bluebell News from 2009, it was stated that it should (in theory) run for its 10 years. I will see if I can find the copy (Autumn issue I think)
     

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