Diesels on steam tours

Incidentally, the following been posted on rail-gen:

A few thoughts....

1. Isn't less than 3 and a half hours a bit tight for a pair of 31s from Finsbury Park to York?

2. Will 71000 have to be dispatched south from York to go and rescue the 31s?

3. More seriously, I hope the 31s do not remain on the back of the train for the return run. That would be well over 200 tons of extra weight (the equivalent of about SIX extra coaches).

 

What a bizarre statement to make, so are you saying that despite 4771 not performing well on Saturday, the 33 should not have assisted ?

The Harringworth Shuttles earlier in the year needed a push on the way home because 4965 was low on water.

6024 a few years ago needed to be pushed nearly all the way from Stratford On Avon - Weymouth by 33103.

And dont even mention the Exeter Shambles !!!

It makes perfect sense to have a diesel on the rear.....imagine the debacle that would have been caused without it......

 

Of all the sets, I'd have to say that the Green train and the Vintage trains set on its longer runs perhaps are the biggest candidates for regular diesels on the back, simply because as vac only stock it would be a lot harder to get a loco that can haul it with passengers on board. Atleast with through piping on the loco and dual fitted stock only the loco is unbraked and there are at least 10 coaches behind it for brake force.

Which to me is a good case for retaining mark 1s, the loco can remain vac only to save on costs and teh stock can be hauled with out reducing teh speed too much by whatever is available to rescue.

Again, I've often said that as charters are a leisure option, and not a necessity of travel why can't it be made that there is a condition of booking that we are told when booking that mk1s are to be used and that by booking we accept the perceived 'risk' of riding in mk1 stock and that we are willing to take that risk? Charters and public transport are not the same thing

 

Thanks for making that clear Andy. How about other tour operators? I strongly agree with the point that operators should be open with information when planning and advertising tours.

 

In the Diesel section there have been a few snide comments when remarking on the workings of the few remaining EWS class 37's, can't complain about Sheds when you scoffed at the sight of a Tractor a while back.

Personally i agree if a diesel is needed i'd much rather it was D1015 or similar.

 

Hi all,

Seems simple to me.

Tour operator finds out (presumably from Network Rail) whether a diesel is required either for traction assistance reasons or for shunt release or triangle turnround reasons (or because the TOC, tour operator or NR manager is unwilling to trust the steam engine to handle the load and timings).

Tour operator publishes presence of diesel on back (presumably again) of train for most or all of steam legs.

Punters decide whether they want to go on the trip or not.

To use the magic p word for the third time, presumably most non-enthusiasts will not care if there is a diesel on the back so it is (only) the enthusiasts who may decide not to book a trip for this reason.

Enthusiasts who think steam is worth it whether or not there is a diesel on the back and go on the trip will be happy.
Enthusiasts who do not want to go on a trip with a diesel on the back will not go.
Non-enthusiasts who think steam trains are nice, or just trains are nice, will not mind either way.

Oh, and countless man-hours will be saved on forums such as this one.

Any takers?

Regards to all steam men and women, everywhere (even on the Western),

Mike

 

Now I feel as if I must do the research and put it on here...

The tour I was thinking about was The Limited on 21/10 (so I am told), as a friend of mine was going to book on it when it was D1015 all the way. He had to cancel when 6024 was put on for part of the journey, as it meant the train left Paddington earlier than he could get there.
From elsewhere on Nat Pres:

The first bit of that confuses me, since it says it is being used on a steam tour - yet I was under the impression it was supposed to be a diesel tour.

So throwing it back to Andrew Staite, if you say

could you please enlighten me.

 

Thank you Andy Staite for your reply.It would be nice to hear from some other operators for example Kingfisher,Steam Dreams,The National Railway Museum,Pathfinder and the Railway Touring Co to understand their opinion on this issue.

 

When I know in advance that there will be a diesel at the back, I usually make that clear on the timings page.

David at http://www.uksteam.info

 

This is not quite right. There was originally due to be two quite separate tours from Paddington to Penzance on 21-Oct. The first behind D1015 throughout, and the second behind 6024 with an EWS diesel on the non-steam legs. In the event the D1015 tour was cancelled. Instead D1015 was used in place of the EWS diesel on the other tour - and what an excellent day out it was !

David at http://www.uksteam.info

 

Thankyou very much gwr4090. If I were more of a wesrern man, then I would no doubt have been on that train - can't think of a better western tour!

 

During 2003/4 i was involved in marketing a couple of diesels for mainline use and wrote to the three charter TOCs (yes i even wrote to EWS). I only received a reply from Bob Gordon the MD of Merlin (before it was FM Rail and became a mess). Following some discussions and a meeting i received a letter from Bob (dated Dec 2004) detailing a large number of points. I cannot reprint the whole letter but have reproduced the major points below. I hope this will not embarrass Bob but i do not know how to contact him since he left Merlin/FM in early 2005.

Bob wrote;

On the point of diesels attached to the rear of steam charters, this is something we at Merlin try to avoid at all costs. The final decision is ALWAYS with the tour operator as he/she is our customer and therefore is responsible for paying our invoice.
However, there are a number of points which need to be taken into account;
1 On operations to terminals like Weymouth a release loco is essential. Merlin always planned to use the diesel that brought the empty stock from the MHR for the job but it would follow the charter in the next path. Recently NR has suggested that no suitable path would be available and therefore the diesel would need to be attached!
2 The Green Train which is Vacuum Braked and would cause some serious embarrassment if it failed and no vacuum braked diesel could be found. Hence we shadow all these operations or at the very least have a strategically based vacuum diesel along the route.
3 The Green Train is steam heated and therefore a diesel is not required for heating purposes. The fact that some other coach owners refuse to keep their 'steam heat' in operation is unfortunate.
4 NR/TOCs are sometimes inconsistent and not very timely with their demands.
When Steam Dreams started their operation to Canterbury, Bodmin was allowed to haul 11 coaches on a wet/windy day but 4 weeks later on a dry day a different EWS Traction Inspector would insist on the diesel staying attached??
5 Merlin tries to supply heritage diesels where possible, hence 'Gordon Highlander' being used in 2003/4.
6 Sometimes Tour Operators can be difficult. As an example Merlin has just refused an operation from Taunton which takes a circular route through Exeter and back to Taunton. Despite the TO requesting double headed steam plus 13 coaches for the whole trip, clearly there will be a problem on the bank at Exeter and therefore we have insisted on a diesel being attached until after Exeter. The TO has put himself into an awkward situation; he says he needs to fill 13 coaches to make a profit at his prices, but feels a diesel will chase his customers away. Equally, he does not give a damn about the risks to the rail network or the TOC he is asking to run the operation.
[/b]

 

Please remove this response, pressed wrong button!

 

Point 6 in FiftyFreak's posting above is interesting. It sounds as if Merlin had refused an operation which was identical to the ill-fated S&D railtour in March this year. So why did they later agree to the same operation?

 

Can say that point 6 in Fifty Freaks posting was not a Past-Time operation

 

Seats on main line steam specials cost a lot of money probably three or four times more than a seat for the same journey by diesel. Steam specials aim to rekindle authentically what it was like to travel by steam train on the main line 40 or more years ago, that is what the punter pays for. Diesels were not attached to the rear trains in steam days. If a diesel is on the back of a steam train to me it begs the question as to why it is not on the front rather than the steam engine because in my view it renders the steam loco surplus to requirements, the higher fare unjustified and defeats the purpose of the outing. In most circumstances I believe it is unreasonable to include a diesel in the formation as people pay to be pulled by steam not pushed by a diesel which usually becomes necessary the moment a diesel is attached because of the additional weight of the diesel locomotive. Neither do I believe possible failure is an acceptable reason as any machine can breakdown. Steam trains are no more prone to breaking down than any other type of train. I've learned from experience that I can book with confidence with Past Time Rail and Vintage Trains as these two promoters are most unlikely to have a diesel attached to any of their trains. If they do it is then only for the part of the journey where the diesel is required and the reason for its presence is explained before hand. I do not book with promoters who are noted for tagging on diesels although it can be difficult at times especially in winter months when diesels are sometimes used for heating in "trying to dodge the diesel". It would be helpful if there was a Code of Practice adopted by all steam train promoters that for each train they promote they state in their publicity / advertising material whether or not they intend to include a diesel in the formation and if so why. Customers could then make their own choice. What I object to is having booked for a steam special only to find a diesel attached to the back on the day of running without being pre-warned. I would not travel with that company again.

 

Ok then what about coaching stock e.g. Mk 2s? excluding the Green train but what about sets that are ETH only? How would heat them this time of year?
there are a only a handful of mainline coaches and it wouldn't surprise me if some were only ETH.

 

Most charter companies have generator vans. EWS have a few, as do Rivera. The railfilms set also includes one.

 

EWS have 2 generator cars, one of which is shot! It failed on a Finsbury Park - Salisbury trip over 2 years ago and hasn't worked since.

 

I'm sure they had a couple in use as Barrier Vehicles on the VSOE's plus the Maroon one in the charter rake... but i am happy to sit corrected!