Ulster Folk and Transport Museum

Is this part of the Science Museum family or a free standing museum under Northern Ireland governance?

We visited last Saturday and it was an appalling experience!

I last visited the old facility thirty eight years ago when it was akin to a children's playground where parents abandoned their kids to climb all over the exhibits with gay abandon.

It is now in a 1994 built facility which is itself a monument to political correctness, with more attention and floorspace given to disabled ramps than exhibits and nothing has changed!

Exhibits are just chucked in and utterly incapable of photography. If there is a museum shop it isn't in the same building!

Seriously - want a lesson in how not to do it - visit Cultra!

The only thing in its favour is that the exhibits are enclosed and dry

 

Frank,

The UFTM comes under the umbrella of National Museums Northern Ireland and therefore does not have any connection to either the Science Museum or the NRM except for the normal professional relationships.

I would have to disagree that the old facility (or indeed the new one) is a children's playground. There is footplate/interior access to nearly all the exhibits, and with that comes the inevitable problem of kids going 'exploring'. If every exhibit was 'out of bounds' I imagine there would be a rash of complaints about everything being inaccessible!

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the exhibits are 'chucked in' - the new museum was designed around a turntable and as such the exhibits radiate from this with a circular viewing gallery above. Personally I quite like that idea and the ramps down to ground level also give varying views of parts of the exhibits at different angles and heights as you descend. I'm not sure that a lift or flights of stairs would be entirely appropriate!

Photography is a problem - but that was also the case in the old museum. The curator at the time of the new construction wanted to try to recreate, in part, the old museum's atmosphere of coming around the corner and being surprised at what was lurking there. Unfortunately this idea along with a tight site and limited funds meant that the museum just isn't big enough for the current exhibits, never mind the extra exhibits that the UFTM really should have been acquiring.
In my opinion the road transport building alongside should have been an extension for the rail exhibits and the road transport moved down to the main transport building which is a shockingly bad building and should be flattened at the earliest opportunity!

The current setup has it's problems (the last time I was there most of the information boards were between the rails, and several haven't been updated since around 2001) but with a little imagination it could be made into an excellent facility. If you would like to express some thoughts on what could be done to improve things, the curator's name is Mark Kennedy. write to him at UFTM, Cultra, Holywood, Co. Down. BT18 0EU

One thing that you should be aware of, is that unlike the mainland (as far as I am aware) there are no fixed funds specifically set aside in NI towards museums - that is why it took so long to relocate from Witham Street. You will also have been charged to enter the UFTM - so think on those of you who complain about the NRM - at least you don't have to pay!!

In general politicians and pen pushers in NI have scant regard for history of any sort, that is why there is a Titanic museum in every city/town/village that had the slightest connection to the ship, but none in Belfast where she was built! That is also the reason why the Nomadic project is at a virtual standstill.

Keith

 

I remember Witham Street well (and the Edmondson tickets "Witham Street - Seymour Street" you were issued with as you paid to go in). It's fair to say that photography is hard at Cultra, but was much, much harder at Witham Street. (Imagine trying to photograph Maedhbh from ground level, in a six-foot-wide gap between lines of stock. Footplate access to the locos is at is as good at Cultra as it was at Witham St.

Could Cultra be improved? Definitely.

Would I like to see Dunluce Castle steam again...? You bet.

Richard

 

Sorry Ghost - but I know what I saw in 1970 and last week, and it is parents simply leaving their children to their own devices to run riot.

The rail section is worst affected, as at least the tramcars are secured, but the wear to the GN railbus tells its own tale. But just look at the foot framing and cabs of other exhibits to see the long term result. Equally a polishing rag would not go amiss.

As for the high level ramped accesses - a typical architect's excess that contributes nothing at all

 

I still have a few of those tickets in a box somewhere Richard! I don't know if it would work these days but I loved getting the ticket and I loved Witham Street despite it's problems. It was always a sad sight to see the GN railbus slowly disintegrating out the back when we visited. You may or may not know that there was actually a plan to restore No 74 about 10? years ago under a deal with a generous benefactor. Unfortunately it came to nothing as the loco is in a far worse state than she looks - one of the things I remember was that she needed a new wheel! I think there may also have been issues regarding ownership/leasing of the loco so the deal was put on ice. Maybe someday it will head the Portrush Express again I'd love to see the BCDR tank out and running, but it's probably too big for Downpatrick use and too small for Whitehead operations.

Frank, while I'm not doubting what you saw - surely it is the responsibility of the parents to keep their kids under control - not the museums!!
I would agree with you about the wear and tear on the locos cabs though and the GN railbus does seem to suffer most, perhaps because it is the most accessible or unusual. Some of the tramcars used to be accessible, but they have now been roped off - presumably because of damage/wear. It's been 14 years since I was last in the NRM and I can't remember how it was done there - can anyone say how they manage footplate access or access to coaches?

A system of rotating access to the locos etc would probably be best for the long term care, and I would agree with you again that a few tins of brasso wouldn't go amiss! More up to date and accurate information boards would also be a good idea. As Richard mentioned, Cultra could definately be improved. I think the basic concept of display around a turntable is a good one, it's just that there is too much rolling stock in too small a space (and as I mentioned earlier, there should really be more rolling stock!).

The original plan allowed for an extension in the Bangor direction but only of about another 80-100ft if I remember rightly, so it wouldn't actually be much of a benefit unless the rest of the museum was rearranged and some rail exhibits moved into space in the road hall.

To be honest, the whole transport side of things at Cultra needs looked at with some 'blue sky thinking' as they say. To my mind, rail should take over the road hall and both road and rail halls extended. The main transport building should be blown to smithereens (please can I press the plunger!!) and a new building erected to accomodate the road/trams/aircraft and marine sections. A mock dry dock would be built in the field behind the existing building to accomodate 'Result' - this idea was actually planned back in the 70s/80s but nothing ever came of it despite some individuals donating substantial amounts. Perhaps this would allow the H&W archives to finally be catalogued and made available for research/display (the UFTM have held the H&W archive for a considerable time and have done absolutely nothing with it, I believe most, if not all requests for access are refused).
A small concrete apron could be laid out to display aircraft during good weather (anyone know where the Spitfire disappeared to?).

The 'Folk' side of Cultra is excellent but the Transport side has for too long been the poor relation - it's about time the overpaid pigs at Stormont got their snouts out of the trough and invested in our heritage.

Keith

 

Might be worth moving this into the 'Heritage railways & Centres in the Uk' section as the thread has nothing to do with the NRM now.

Regards,

Dan

 

I had heard something rather vague some time ago. A new wheel is a pretty significant obstacle, though not insurmountable. A bit beyond the capabilities even of the Whitehead foundry, though. (IIRC quite a bit of the foundry equipment at Whitehead came from J Hamilton & Co Ltd of Percy St, Belfast when they closed - J Hamilton was my great grandfather.)

Oooh, now that would be nice.

Richard

 

BIB - the number of times I've heard that 30 is too big for D'Patrick! Honestly, the sole remaining BCDR engine and there's an indifference towards it running on the Irelands only SG preserved line, which is a portion of the BCDR! Imagine the WSR without GW loco's!

 

After about 15 years of trying to find time during brief visits to Belfast, to go along to Cultra, I finally made it this year albeit for about one hour. Whilst I agree with the comments about kids (but something endearing about allowing them to "play" trains and maybe create the spark that leads to enthusiam) and the limitations for photography, I welcome the non-step access to most of the museum. Most of all, to be able to go see, touch, stand alongside these relics of the Irish railway system, relics that only existed in my mind after reading book after book. Yes, it could be better, but at least it, and its contents, is there.

Steve

 

notwithstanding this being a resurrected 5 year old thread, I think Cultra is a fine museum, a brilliant collection of well-displayed Irish artifacts and most of all, it's pretty much all there is other than Downpatrick and a few isolated bits and bobs. There is nothing in the Republic of any note at all really. Most items from the Republic have passed into the hands of NI organisations and thank Dog we have them!

 

Brian,

It's not about indifference - it's about practicality. The loco is reportedly very rough underneath a nice coat of paint. Who is going to pay for the overhaul?
Downpatrick has a limited run which will probably extend to a maximum of about 3/4 miles maximum if all their plans come off. There is not much point in restoring No30 when the Sugar Puff locos cost less to run and cost less to overhaul.

If the original DCDR plan to extend to Ardglass had come to pass, then maybe No30 would have been a more realistic proposition, but you also have to remember that the UFTM will not want a lot of their locos out on loan to other groups - otherwise they would have a very empty museum!

Railway preservation in Ireland attracts a very small number of volunteers - the DCDR and RPSI have to act within those constraints.


Keith

 

On loan to other groups? What other groups? DCDR and RPSI operating on the Mainline and that's it as far as Irish Standard Gauge goes.

 

That's what I meant - Brian is suggesting No30 goes to Downpatrick and in another thread he seems to be considering No800 for the mainline (ie RPSI). He was also enquiring about No74, so I think if those 3 locos were to leave Cultra, it would look rather sparse!
It should also be remembered that No85 belongs to the UFTM and is already on loan to the RPSI

Keith

 

I can see the sense of 30 going to Downpatrick. I doubt 74 will go anywhere ( unless it is swapped for 131 or 171) perhaps and 800 defiantly will stay where it is for the foreseeable future

 

Well, who paid for the restoration of the O & K's? and are 2 O & K's equal to one bogie tank in terms of cost? And to me, the words ' cost less to run and cost less to overhaul' shouldn't be part of an argument for restoration - Any restoration should be from the heart as well as the head, if it was all from the head there would be an empty field where the Great Dorset Steam Fair is held every year.

 

To my knowledge the DCDR paid for the restorations, alongside some grant money from various sources. As I've already said the bogie tank would cost a fortune to restore - who's going to pay for it? Even if you got a wealthy benefactor to pay for the restoration, the loco itself is too big/coal hungry for the limited run at the DCDR. Why would anyone run a loco costing say £300 a day and make a loss, when they can run a smaller loco at a cost of £150 a day and make a profit????

Yes a lot of restorations are from the heart and I would love to see No30 at Downpatrick, but there has to be realism and proper financial accounting in place - my head says it's too costly and will never happen.

Keith