Diesels on steam tours

South Yorkshireman asked about the heating of mk2's. I suppose mk1's which are ETH only fall into the same category. Unless there is a generator coach available then my view is the train should not be run. Thats why I tend to stick to Past Time Rail and Vintage Trains particularly in the winter who use a generator vehicle and steam heating respectively. There is clearly a shortage of generator vehicles and ideally one would expect every TOC who have stock that is used for Steam Specials and which requires electrical power, including Pullmans,to have one. No doubt finances dictate and I can't argue with that but given the relatively recent withdrawals of large numbers of diesel locos coinciding with the withdrawal of MK1 Royal Mail TPO vehicles, why some of these could not have converted to generator vehicles I feel is an opportunity missed.

However I am not certain even that would remedy the situation. The use of diesels on the back of steam specials is inconsistent. Take Holyhead as a destination. For years the loco that hauled the train did its own shunting on arrival at Holyhead. It still has loco release facilities, the layover is generally 3 -4 hours but increasingly diesels are appearing on the back, allegedly to assist with shunting! Personally I would prefer to go back to the old days of the ETHELS, at least they could not push.

Tour promoters who use diesels on the back of steam specials are losing bookings, mine for one but it is the only way I can express my disapproval of this practice. Some could argue I am cutting off my nose despite my face adopting this attitude but it is my choice and so be it. I would have loved to have done Green Arrow on the ECML but realised at the outset it would have diesel on the back so didn't book.

 

The VSOE has a generator car, but something like that which is a day out rather than a railtour as such needs to have a diesel as while punters might not mind being stuck for a while if the kettle broe down or being a bi chilly if the generator car packed up, VSOE passengers won't take too kindly to it. Maybe if they were to use that former Brighton Belle power car for electrified routes...

 

Some info regarding generator cars appears on the UK Steam info page.
EWS have been using 35469 and Riviera Mk 2 17105.There were two other Mk2s 6310,6311 but I am not sure if they are still in use.Unsure about the Railfilms train.

 

The last time I checked (last year), there were twelve generator coaches:
6260-4 all owned by Network Rail
6310, 6320 and 17105 owned by Riviera
6311, 35469 owned by EWS
6312 owned by West Coast
6313 owned by VSOE

These are all ex Mk1 Gangwayed brake vans (BG), except for 17105 which is an ex Royal Train Mk 2a BFK? no 2905, 35469 which is an ex Mk1 BSK, and 6320 which I think is ex Mk1 TSO no 5033. I am not sure of the current status or ownership of all these vehicles. The Network Rail vehicles have not been used on charter trains as far as I am aware.

David

 

I've posted this topic at the top of the forum, as at the moment every thread in this forum, seems to be descending in to chaos and going off topic and ending up on this subject.

Please make sure all comments regarding diesels on back of steam tours, are posted on this thread, NOT on individual tour threads.

 

I noticed that on all the Torbay runs, the diesel was sent separately. I guess this was because there was an available path in addition to the one occupied by 6024. Out of interest, is it much more expensive to do this as opposed to dragging the diesel in the consist (if so, by what factor)?

Also, I think we should take comfort from Andy's commment. it seems to me that the competent railtour companies do indeed try their best keep their tours diesel free, but obvously do not have the final say.

Are there any guidelines or operating procedures titled along the lines of "The use of diesel traction on steam tours"?
If not, could NR and the relevant TOC's and tour compnies get a working party together to draw up some guidelines?

As for diesel or not and all the why's and whererfores - In the end, it always seems to come back to what I say in my tag-line.....

 

12th December

Another FM Rail train with a diesel in the train,sorry an ED.Presumably there for heating.Isn't it time Steam Dreams got a generator for their trains.

 

73s and 33s ETH is not compatiblle with non EMU and non dedicated Southern region stock, of which non of the charter stock is. The Green train is not all ETH, the buffet is only steam heat!

 

Re: 12th December

Can ED's heat the train on diesel power? A large part of today's trip was away from the third rail.

 

Thank you for your reply South Yorkshireman.So why is the blasted thing on the train then.Is there a directive from Network Rail to have these on the Southern at present or is it FM just incapable of running a steam hauled train.

 

Yes what a good idea, that would be ideal for shunt releasing or giving the steamer a shove if required wouldn't it........


#-o #-o

 

Just to balance the argument, the 'Diesel on the back' issue does affect Diesel tours as well. For example there were a lot of complaints on the 40 tour to Whitby when instead of allowing the 40 to run round its train at BAttersby, a 37 was put ont he back at York. The people who booked for the 40 were also fairly upset. However, they did atleast acknowledge that it wasn't a shed.

Most Diesel tours (and landcruises) do seem to run Top and tail these days, most FM trains such as the blue train do, so don't assume that it affects only steam tours

 

Mr Cobweb,if you have nothing constructive to add please don't bother getting involved with the topic.
South Yorkshireman,personally I am not that bothered with diesel tours.I am interested in some but not as much as the steam.I have seen the sudo Blue Pullman run with a 47 on the front trying to lift the train with a dead 47 at the rear.I personally think this is wrong and regard it as a modern practice which is against all the traditions that I have been accustom too.
I still believe that it is wrong to assist a steam hauled train with a diesel or electric especially if you advertise the train as steam hauled.
Anyone who continues to operate this policy will eventually kill off the custom they wish for.
I also believe therefore that steam does not have too much of a future if this practice continues much longer.

 

WRONG!

33s & 73s can heat Mk1, 2, 2a, 2b & 2c stock. But not Mk2d, 2e or 2f. Except Gatwick Express 2fs which have modified MAs to cope with 750v ETH.
The majority of charter stock is mk1. With occasional 2a TSOs as end vehilces.
The Green train is mostly dual heat Mk2s. If the operator were bothered they could through-wire the buffet coach.

 

OK, as I was the biggest complainer about threads being hijacked by this subject, here is my view...

Diesels are used on steam tours for a reason, if not they would not be there. It is unfortunate, but it is a fact of the continued existence of steam on the mainline.

No tour operator wants the diesel there and in most cases it is due to necessity. be it for heating, power or to assist where required. or in some cases, like 76079's tours earlier in the year to drag the train back from places there are no run-round facilities.

Occasionally, Network Rail will insist on diesels for 'insurance' purposes. Again this is not something the tour operator can change.

In 99% of cases, a diesel is only used for the reasons above (Although I am missing several purposes I'm sure!). Often people seem to be under the impression that an engine on the rear is working or pushing, when the fact of the matter is it is only ticking over or, 'carrying its own weight'. Just because it is there does not mean it is in use and please, make sure you have the facts right before criticizing the tour operator/TOC in question.

I really wish that people would take into account that nothing happens without a reason and that it is often not the fault of the tour operator/TOC, before they launch into a tirade of abuse on this subject.

Rant over and apologies if I offend anyone! :smt001

 

Ok I stand corrected!

So it can work with the non air-con stock? What limits it from working withe air-con stock, as My above message showed, I have always been led to believe the 750DC was not compatible with everything else?

 

Huh ! Thats rich coming from you. You are the one boring the pants off everyone with your constant whinging about the same old subject.

And if you dont want to hear it from me, Stuart 9941 has the answer.

Thankyou, now drop the subject.....


=; :-({|= =;

 

Richard, Please do not drag me into your arguments. The quote u have used is MY opinion and not directed at anyone or to be used as ammunition in anyone elses' fights.

 

Well you are right.....

:-s

 

Well I for one won't be travelling on any that have a diesel in the train.I hope that the Companies/TOC's who condone this practice go bust,then perhaps I will get what is being promised rather than being cheated.