GCR Winter Gala 2014 Special guest Engine ???

... and as one of those who joined the charters organised by Sidmouth, Russ Hillier et al the attraction was the pairing of an A4 with a rake of genuine LNER teak liveried coaches. It mattered not which line offered the chance - and I have also joined a charter with 60007 and a rake of LNER teak liveried coaches on the NYMR - but the sight of an authentic rake is one factor and the choice of line another.

The purists may decry the actions taken in the name of "recreation" the realists may support the actions taken in the name of "recreation" but - at the end of the day it's a case of "You pays your money you takes your choice !" - and the charter organisers try to make the best of limited opportunities.

To take the question of authenticity to another level; was it authentic to rename 70013 as 70048 Terretorial Army 1908 - 1958 then alter the name (albeit temporarily) to Terretorial Army 1908 - 2008 to commemorate a centenary event ? Not authentic perhaps - but something that MAY have happened had steam still been active on the main line and something which garnered publicity for both the GCR and Terretorial Army.

In a similar vein how authentic are the operations of the S160s which would appear to be the talk of this month ? Whilst I am familiar with 6046 on the Churnet Valley, I have yet to see 98520 in its current livery but I look forward to seeing - and enjoying - it. Ringing the chances may NOT be authentic but it offers variety - and it is variety which keeps the public returning to support the heritage lines in the UK,

 

Very interested to learn of the popularity of the A4 charter Martin - given the number of LNER locos that can run with teak coaches in many peoples' idea of "authenticity" is about to be reduced when Morayshire goes BR Black "for photo charters". We have had a number of debates on here about "if you painted XXXXX (complete as appropriate) in BR livery, you would get a load of photo charters that wouldn't be interested in the present livery". I think the A4 success shows that there are a good number of photographers who want the right combinations, which are easier and widely achievable with BR liveries but that isn't the impression that one or two high profile "it must be BR" writers give!

On the NYMR, we try to match BR Blue 60007 with the teaks, and then there are complaints that it should be on the Blood & Custard Mark 1s. I don't have the knowledge to be sure, but those who do tell me a full rake of Blood and Custard Thompsons might be fine but 60007 would probably be BR Green with the "Lion and Dartboard" by the time full sets of B & C Mark 1s appeared. Indeed, photographs show how few full sets of Mark 1s appeared before the end of steam, and as steam was working lesser services, towards the end, the trains were often right mixtures of stock of varied ages! I am sure locos were repainted more rapidly than carriages by BR (presumably, they had more regular works visits required), so BR lettered and liveried locos on Big Four stock would not be unusual.

Another point on accuracy arises from Martin's top photo. Being a low angle, the fact the line is single track is hidden and it could be ECML in the 1930s - except, the lead vehicle would, I believe, normally be a brake with the luggage end next to the loco. Many heritage lines marshal the brake more or less centrally for practical reasons, and few run with a brake at both ends, so rarely does the "luggage van next to the tender" or at least one end of the set, which I tend to feel was at least meant to be very common in steam days, actually recreated.

And don't start to think about "authentic recreation" on mainline trips. Quite apart from the obvious infrastructure modernisation, sets of coaches with different shades of paint, maybe different liveries (although that was not uncommon during period of change over) and Mark 2s painted in BR maroon (I know, a few were), other coaches in liveries unheard of in BR days and yet how often do we see "marvelous recreation", "could be 50 years ago etc."......

Steven

 

Why should that be ?

246 / 62712 was a ScR locomotive and - as a child living in Edinburgh in the 1950s - I recall travelling on LNER teak stock into Fife on a number of occasions behind a variety of BR lined black locomotives as well as unlined black freight locomotives. A look at any of WVJ's excellent books will reveal many cases of BR lined black / LNER teak liveried stock operating in the 1950s so the question of "authenticity" does not arise - or a loss of opportunity to create an "authentic" scene.

 

Just to clear things up on Morayshire. The locomotive is currently in Doncaster green, and subject to Neil Cave raising the necessary funds, will be repainted into early crest British Railways black for the remainder of her ‘ticket’ which expires February/March 2015.

After she comes out of traffic, she will be overhauled and will return in Apple green with LNER on the tender again. The preferred colour for her is green amongst the majority of SRPS members as she matches our growing rake of teaks, therefore it is unlikely she will go black again– this really is a ‘once in a lifetime’ chance! The only reason the repaint is happening is to raise money for the upcoming overhaul, as we did with 419 which raised much needed funds.

If anyone would like to donate to SRPS funds, we have a BTdonate page here. Any donations would be gratefully received, with Caledonian 419 and Austerity No’19 close to finished your donation would be well used. After all, where else can you see a Caley loco on Caley coaches!

 

Have to agree with Beancounter. The "any colour you like so long as it is black" brigade seem never to have looked at BR-era photos, judging by the near-universal associated calls to pair such and such a loco with Mark 1s. Mark 1s behind steam were fairly rare, even more so behind branch line steam where pre-grouping and grouping-era coaches reigned supreme until the end of steam. That's not exactly surprising - the Mark 1s were the brand new vehicles, so it is understandable that they were initially concentrated on the prestige services, which generally aren't what is recreated on most preserved lines. Looking at old photos shows that coaching sets in particular were rather less uniform than people these days imagine, and that generally older vehicles survived much longer than people imagine. (Indeed, if there hadn't been lots of pre-grouping vehicles surviving into the 1960s, there wouldn't be many preserved now).

So, with one or two honourable exceptions, few preserved lines can do a really good job of portraying things "as they were" on a consistent basis - indeed, of the standard gauge heritage lines I am familiar with, only one can regularly pair locomotives and carriages that are right for the line and right for each other in day-in, day-out service; a few others can do the job on a now-and-again basis.

Having said all that, I'm not a fan of the red 8F or lined 9F. Even if lines can't produce completely accurate recreations (especially in regard coaching stock), it should still be an aim for lines that claim a "preservation" ethos. In many ways, I'd prefer completely fictitious, but corporate liveries (such as "Bluebell" on the Bluebell railway, or the KWVR-liveried Ivatt on that line many years ago) to genuine liveries on the wrong loco (such as the Prussian Blue SDJR 7F on the WSR, or the red Stanier 8F). If you want to claim to be a "living museum" (rather than a "transport provider"), then there have to be certain standards. After all, part of the remit of a museum is to help educate the present generation about the past: I can accept compromises where there is no possible alternative (such as in coaching stock), but pretending an 8F ever ran in red seems much more dubious.

Just a personal opinion, of course.

Tom

 

Pretty much confirms what I had been told per my 2nd paragraph. Whilst BR livery on Big Four stock isn't unauthentic, you might ask "why would you do it" to recreate a much shorter timespan than Big Four livery on all. For you, and others, the answer would be "to recreate something I can remember" and that is fine and perfectly valid but, as steam_mad says, doing such things for a limited period as a "once in a lifetime" chance for that recreation is different from an attitude that a few have that everything must be BR, all the time, to be "correct" (although, as Martin noted about a double chimney on Bittern, that may be technically correct!)

Steven

 

Interesting the comment regarding Morayshire up thread that the preference among the members of that society is for LNER green.

The owning group behind 6233 also seem fond of their LMS red, and the likes of the Maunsell society seem to see no major dissent from within about always plumping for SR livery on their beasts. Even the Bulleid society seem wedded to the idea of a malachite Bulleid (thankfully, as it would be such a shame to see this livery lost to history).

Does this perhaps indicate a disconnect between the "BR livery only" types (be they hard core photters or otherwise) and those people who actually have an interest in the locomotive?

 

I think Martin is pretty much spot-on with his post, generally as long as it's an authentic train combination the popularity and enthusiasm will be there for it whether it be for a charter or a gala event. BR era charters as far as I've seen are still vastly more popular than non-BR era charters. To give a couple of examples E4 in LBSC umber - 1 charter, E4 in BR lined black - 8-10 charters and E4 in SR olive green so far I think about 3 or 4 charters. Or there's Stepney as 32655 - 3 charters whereas in Stroudley Improved Engine Green livery I believe only 1 charter and that was on the K&ESR with the loco mocked-up as Brighton Works. Having said that there have been some superb, well attended non BR era charters I've been on for example 1638 with SR wagons and on another occasion with the 3 Maunsells or 178 with vintage Four Wheelers and Pre-Grouping wagons. It is noticeable that generally on a BR era charter the event is pretty much sold out but a non-BR era charter the numbers of photters are a few less which is a bit of a shame. But personally, yes my Dad and I prefer BR era trains but as long as it's an authentic combination of loco & rolling stock whether it be BR, Pre-Nationalisation or Pre-Grouping we're happy to see it, ride it and phot it.

 

There are no plans of 1744 being repainted into BR Livery for the foreseeable future as it is having a partial repaint into the GNR livery it currently carries and will do so until the end of its ticket until otherwise mentioned in the future

People have their opinions on 48624 and 92214. I cannot comment on the 9F as it isn't our locomotive. But for 48624, Some like it and for some its not their cup of tea and its up to them if they want to ride behind it or take photograph's of it and it doesn't please everyone. I agree the livery is not authentic for the locomotive and I can't speak for the owners of 48624 but she is a superb piece of kit. She steams well, she's reliable, strong and she carries out her duties that is required at the Great Central Railway. 48624 is a popular locomotive with the footplate crews and the general public, I think she suits the livery she carries albeit it NEVER carried it. It is well looked after, cleaned top to bottom weekly, immaculate, and overall in very good working order. Unfortuantely I wasn't born when steam ruled supreme on the mainlines and branch lines but would 48624 perform her duties any different if she was painted black? No it wouldn't. I am grateful to the people who first bought this locomotive from scrap condition from Barry who had the foresight to buy, restore and see their locomotive run. I am glad whether it is red or black or with pink and yellow spots, I am glad it is even running. And the end of the day it is up to the owner's, not the enthusiast or the general public to whom what livery it will stay in. In time should the owner's decide it'll go BR Black or LMS Black you'll find out on here no doubt but for the foreseeable its staying red.

Diesels are another kettle of fish. Load Haul livered Class 50 hauling LNER teak/LMS stock spring to mind?!?!

Great Central Pullmans:- The Great Central 'Pullman' is sponsored by Cromwell Tools of whom the MD of Cromwell Tools is our president and painted into 'Pullman' style livery with the Cromwell logo's on the side, it is not a Thomas style railway which someone in a post said somewhere. Its not authentic I agree with that, but its offering an alternative dining to the normal dining service we provide.

Unfortunately due to operational requirements there will be the odd coach that isn't in a uniform rake. We apologise for this but we are providing service to the enthusiast and to the families/public and during a gala using the available stock we have at present.

I am all for recreating the experience i.e. Br livered loco and mk1 stock , GWR loco and stock or LNER livered A4 and teak stock, uniform rakes of coaches etc etc.

I respect the decision locomotive owner's decision what colour their locomotive is painted in.

I am looking forward to the gala, I always do as guard and regardless of what the line up is. I hope to see 92214 on the windcutter's and possibly a TPO? 22 on freights, Who knows. It will be an excellent gala and we never fail to disappoint.

 

As per title of topic....I think I was cleaning your "special guest engine" on Saturday...

 

I may well be in the minority, but personally I really like fictitious, 'might have been', and unusual liveries. As long as I, or the general enthusiast population, know that it's inaccurate (or know the history behind it in the case of liveries like the blue pannier and ROD mogul), I don't mind.

92214 IMO looks fantastic and sleek in lined black.

One can also completely empathise with the public (Mainly families) who are used to telling machines apart by their colour alone, preferring locos in differing or unusual liveries.

 

This is a bit of a sad reflection on our hobby isn't it?

Fictitious liveries appeal to the general public who make a huge contribution to the upkeep of railway preservation. Is it better that a small number of locos are painted attractive colours for the general public and they appeal to them 108 days a year or that they upset a few 'real' enthusiasts at the galas/events 6 days a year? I would be interested to see what proportion of a locos income comes from 'normal' service and what comes from charters/loans/events - I suspect I could guess what I would rather bet the next set of overhaul expenditure on..........

At the end of the day its not as if we are short of authentically presented locos- and the current resurgence of pre-BR liveries in my eyes can only be a good thing, I thought it was great seeing 6023 working alongside 777 in something other than dark green or black for a change!

Now if someone would just paint one of the Black 5s in LMS colours- probably my favourite loco/livery combination!

Looking forward to making a visit to the Bluebell later this year to take in some pre-grouping splendour too!

Chris

 

On the whole, a valid point. Not sure it's quite so valid when discussing a loco hired in for a gala, though!

 

Depends on who the Gala market is! I would suggest it varies from line to line, but my experience suggests that the general public can find lots of steam locos and the right guest very appealing for a Gala just as much as enthusiasts. Unfortuantely, the two groups may not share the same definition of the "right" guest!

Steven

 

Of course it could be argued that 92214 is painted in the colour scheme 92220 should have been painted in, as green doesn't seem to suit it at all IMHO.

But anyway, I'm off on a tangent now, so I'll stop...

 

*Ploughs thru pages of livery froth (never seen that before on Nat Pres) trying to find something about the gala I am attending!*

 

Think the only gen out there is the list of locos, so there's not much else to discuss at the moment...