Can this loco really be in steam??

Yes, you really are struggling with this one. Read Rumpole and Avonside1563's replies again and you will see the clues, as in:-

"Its quite easy really, exactly the same principle as leaving an engine that's been disposed or left to die overnight and you don't keep tending to that every five minutes." and "Plenty of road movements are made with the loco still warm, however it is usual to drop most, if not all of the fire to avoid any problems with fusible plugs."

Cheers

Alan

 

You mean implications compared to concrete mixers hurtling through bridges or lorries full of acid or petrol or other noxious chemicals? I'm sure if we thought seriously about what other dangerous loads are about on the road network we'd terrify ourselves...

 

I did read the quote, but that implies no fire, which seems fine to me, as opposed to leaving one in.

 

Whilst road engines were obviously designed for the road, they still suffer the same problem of the water congregating at the smokebox end away from the firebox when on a gradient. Clearly the volume of water is different and the proportions of a mainline loco boiler do tend to have a slightly longer barrel compared to firebox, but the principles are the same. Whilst driving on the road you have to accept that sometimes the water will go all over the place almost instantly - part of the 'joy' when you move away from billiard table railways and drive along roads with real hills, with the added fun that you may have never gone along them before so aren't quite sure what to expect!

I can't talk for putting rail locos on prams, but with road engines you'll generally wang as much water in the boiler as possible - above the normal operating level, to help ensure there's always something over the firebox. Some people will light the fire on the trailer before driving off to an event, in the hope that by the time they arrive it will be starting to warm through, or may even have enough steam to drive off. At the other end of the day the damper will be closed and the fire calmed down - possibly pushed up towards the tubeplate to keep heat near that, but allowed to go thin at the back (bearing in mind few, if any, road engines have a brick arch). If going a reasonably long journey where the engine wants to be kept in steam for unloading at the other end, then it's not unusual to have a stop enroute to just check the state of everything and ensure the fire either hasn't gone out, nor is raging a bit too fiercely - a 55mph breeze blowing across a long chimney can keep things lively even with the damper closed.

With the loco in the photo I wouldn't be surprised to see it still has some steam in it - I would assume the pressure was allowed to fall back from the red line before loading, then a dollop of water was put in to bring the pressure further down and to ensure there's plenty over the box. I'd expect the damper to be closed and the last of the day's fire to be thin on the grate. As already pointed out, with no tender coupled up the last thing you want is for the pressure to start climbing up again and the safety valves to lift!

Sat quietly on a trailer isn't the same as being in a station with the vacuum ejector going and the blower hard on. If the pressure's nowhere near the red line and there isn't a huge fire then there's no reason to suspect it'll climb and start blowing off, and if the safety valves don't lift then there's no other way for appreciable amounts of water to leave the boiler.

 

The emergency services would probably treat it the same as any other pressure vessel on a vehicle, like the lorry's brake accumulators for instance. Moving a large load like a locomotive is just that - another large load, there a plenty of heavier and larger items being moved by road; besides, large locos have been moved by road for over a century, how do you think Vulcan Foundry and Beyer, Peacock transported locos to the docks for export?

Cheers

Alan

 

The photo at the start of the thread clearly shows the loco still in steam, but I can't see anything in the photo to suggest it still has a fire in it?

 

Was going more off Ragl's quote about Longmoor with that one, I suspect your right on the pic of the Bulleid.

 

They'd probably make exactly the same of it as if the road traffic collision involved any other steam pressure vessel, be that a steam roller, steam tractor, agricultural traction engine, steam road locomotive, steam waggon, steam car... or a Bulleid pacific at a level crossing.

 

What was that dull thud? Sounded like a penny dropping. Yep, you guessed it, it's just a loco in steam - with no fire!! just happens to be on a low loader at the same time. Anyway, time moves on and I've had my fun for the day, must get on and do something productive.

ciao
Aalan

 

So what hell you on about quoting old stories about a loco with a fire in it for then ?!, your arguing one point then another, make your mind up

Good luck with getting younger people involved by leading them round the houses in a condescending manner, god help preservation 15-20 years down the line...

 

David, re-read RAGL's first post. It says the loco was kept in steam. Nowhere does it say it had a fire in it. Locos are 'in steam' long after the fire has been dropped. In fact it is quite usual to move locomotives under their own steam after the fire has been dropped. Even using them to shunt after dropping the fire is not unknown. You also don't need much steam to blow the whistle; 10 PSI, at the most.

You are the one who started digging the hole and just kept on digging........

 

Thanks Steve, you answered that quite succinctly for me.

Cheers

Alan

 

I'd imagine that the loco was also "hydraulic'd" on disposal, ie filled until the water came over the top of the gauge glass. That gives you probably about three inches more water level than a normal "full" level, with the water just below the top of the glass; and probably represents a water level about a foot or more above the crown sheet. It also knocks back the pressure a long way. With fire just embers and the dampers /hopper doors shut and blower off, the fire would as like as not be out in an hour or two anyway - certainly the pressure would be dropping, not rising. In that situation, even momentarily exposing the fusible plug on a steep downhill would have no consequence, since there is no fire to heat the crown sheet to even remotely close to its softening point.

We also don't know the pressure. If the fireman had overdone it coming on shed, the pressure might have been 250psi, knocked back to say 200psi after filling the boiler. But equally the fireman may have run the fire down and come on shed at 170psi and knocked it back to about 100psi after filling the boiler. And then we don't know when the photo was taken - if it was the next day, the boiler could have lost another 100psi easily. Ultimately, there is just a wisp of steam; you only need about 10 or 20psi to get wisps like that.

The bit I find more surprising is the extra weight of carrying a boiler full of water. But I guess that depends on the haulage contractor and how much time was available for the move - draining a boiler of a loco that had been in steam would probably add at least a day at each end.

Tom

 

I wouldn't worry about the younger generation David; it would have been one of the younger generation who drove it onto the low loader...!

 

I recall back in the 1980's when I did something useful for a living following a low-loader round the southern outskirts of Sheffield, the lorry was carrying an industrial 0-4-0 tank which was as far as I recall was being moved from the one-time preservation scheme at Meadowhall Sheffield to Peak Rail. Given the smoke coming out of the chimney I always thought the loco was being transported " in steam" as such.

46118

 

Quite usual to keep water in the boiler when moving locos on trailers, the weight full will be known and be taken into account. It is usual, however, to empty the tanks, particularly on a saddle tank where it will raise the centre of gravity.

I well remember moving Whiston back to Foxfield from Crewe Heritage Centre in the 80s, put her on the trailer in steam then drove her off an hour and a half later at the colliery then straight back to the other end of the line, and that was with half a tank of water too.

 

Here is a link to "George Sholto" in Bethesda High Street last year on it's way back to Bressingham from The Penrhyn Quarry Railway. Definitely with steam available!



Steve B

 

Even if it had been left how long does it take for the loco to cool enough to mean you cane empty the water out... If you leave a loco for a few days it is still warm........

 

Not sure that riding in the cab of a loco on the back of a low loader meets current traffic legislation!

 

Is that Mr Milner's unit the loco is on?

At least they wouldn't be in trouble for blowing the whistle, whistles don't count as an official audible warning on the road