Charter Train Price Increases

Wasn't it Ben from VT or someone similar said really you needed more than 1 kitchen car for more than 4 dining cars ?, assuming a 12 coach dining train with support and barrier coach, that's 4 non passengers coaches, 25% of your trainload not earning sounds a lot on paper.

As for the food quality, in fairness a top resturants kitchen isn't rocking about at 70MPH.

 

Agreed, I've seen enough Diesel tours where coach A has resembled a fully stocked off licience in the morning.

 

I've been on tours in the past where enterprising catering managers have organised supplies of cask ale and it's gone very well. On one Pathfinders tour I recall extra supplies being delivered at 02:00 and the bar was still open.

 

I think that was our table yesterday.

 

I well remember one of the Western farewell tours in 1977 (The Exeter University Railway Society joined the train at St Davids) which went on a circular tour via Birmingham. Our beer supply ran out by Birmingham and one of our number rang his parents from New Street and arranged for additional supplies to be available at the Hatton stop. Alas, the train did not stop, only pass slowly through. We were only able to fleetingly see the extra case we so dearly needed.

 

Although beer sales are wonderful, the amount of profit created is in the hundreds. At a profit of ₤1 per bottle, 400 passengers would each need to drink 2.5 additional bottles of beer to increase the profit by just ₤1,000.

In my experience, charter train conversations involving money tend to be in the magnitude of thousands, not hundreds. You can burn through a thousand in the blink of an eye by needing a second crew for whatever reason.

I am sorry if this is not what you want to hear, but I can show you how, over the last 4 years that I have been involved with VT, demand for Standard Class is decreasing where Pullman Dining and Club Class (Super Standard) is increasing. With so many charter trains out on the rails, enthusiasts can pick and choose which trains they want to travel on – quite rightly. So tour promoters are under pressure to create longer and more diverse itineraries with multiple locomotives, which all increases the cost to the promoter, which is passed on to the customer.

What no-one seems to be taking into account is the excess wear-and-tear these extended tours place on the loco’s, rolling stock and the crews – none of which are getting any younger. The costs of maintaining fixing the locos in ballooning; keeping up with the latest electronics is not cheep and how about the price of coal?

My doom and gloom advice would be to enjoy this golden age of mainline steam whilst you can. It is getting harder and more expensive to plan and run the trains, with ever increasing financial implications should something not go exactly to plan on the day.

Now I’m going to cry into my pillow as I attempt to slit my wrists with a butter knife!

 

As is the majority of the customer base for these trains Ben. I would agree that we are enjoying something of a golden age presently with main line steam. The only certainty in life is change and for main line steam, I can foresee a peak, possibly a plateauing of demand and then a slow downward trend, it really is a case of enjoy it while you can - making due allowance for age and physical ability to participate of course!!

Cheers

Alan

 

It neednt be that way...
.
Imagine if universities (not schools) were encouraged to put railway mechanical, electrical and civil engineering skills on the agenda, supplemented by onsite practicals.
It would do several things..
1. Real world experience
2. Reduce need for universities to have engineering labs which are barely used and have little real world product to produce (and therefore brings on lack of objectiveness whilst being very tech savvy)
3. Provide an educational backdrop whilst allowing the student to not only learn what they are doing, but crucially... Understand the business end use product (techies too easily get lost in detail and forget the goal).
4. Delivers railways a much needed skillset, product and community benefit
5. Encourages interest in the hobby.
Imagine what end product a 4 year degree course with 100 students working on a common design, transition, implement and evaluate based course could produce for a railway.. What the students would learn and how their studies would benefit... And the PR value to the university that achieves it...and what's more.. Apart from materials there is virtually no additional cost over a regular engineering degree.

The industry could help itself in marketing,
1. The International tourist to the UK knows practically nothing of the mainline steam market.. Whilst the no1 reason for visiting the UK is our history... We don't have any one company catering to this demand..who willingly pays £80-200 for a few hours in a museum in London. The tourist board is at pains to bring tourism north of London.. Surely a train is the way to do it.

2. The family market.. There's simply nothing catering to this group at all.. And that sells 4 seats at a time, not 1... Simple a few set routes, 2 hours out, 2 hours back and a day out in the middle... Stratford with VT is the closest, but no cigar.

 

Nice idea, but what price is a family prepared to pay? Can you fill enough seats at that price in a day to cover your costs, let alone make a bit of profit? Pathfinder ran a number of short-haul, modestly-priced trips around Bristol 10 years ago, or more, but no one has tried anything similar recently, apart from the GWS and their Railmotor on the looe branch. The fixed costs (train crew, loco hire, train hire) are the same whether you cover 30 miles or 300. Only fuel and water consumption, and track access charges, reduce as as you cut the mileage. However, most passengers think ticket price should be roughly proportional to distance travelled. So really, you want to give passengers the longest journey possible within the constraints of a single staff shift, use a large loco and fill as many coaches as the loco can manage over the chosen route, without actually overloading it. But no one who's just looking for a business opportunity is going to run steam trains. Only people who love steam are going to try to make money from them!

 

There must be a tourist market for the Bluebell. Weekend shuttle Victoria-EG then transfer onto Bluebell service trains. Maybe 2 or 3 return trips on a Sunday just like the Shakespears, you could even have the 5Bel (when finished) link up with the Golden Arrow service. Perfect for the tourist market I would think.

 

But is there sufficient stock, locos, crews, support crews, volunteer stewards etc? Is any promoter interested or have the spare capacity ? The RTC London set operates out of Bristol on Sundays in the summer months.RTC run 3 trains a week on Sundays from Bristol, Crewe and York. I cannot see it would be something Steam Dreams would do.

 

A terrific post Ben, and as usual brimming with insight, common sense, and knowledge derived from solid personal experience of reality. I think the engagement you and others at VT have with this forum is one of your organisation's biggest strengths, and makes me determined to do at least one of your tours this year, despite the issues I have with location and the logistical problems it presents.

 

Depends how clever it is done.
4 tickets to Peppa Pig world is £90.

If that train went from say Leeds to Manchester to Liverpool..
but tickets were marketed and sold as a day out from Leeds to Manchester, and Manchester to Liverpool, there's also time in the schedule (and hours in the day) to do a Liverpool to Manchester return.

All of a sudden you have 3 rail tours on one train, from 3 different major cities…£360 for 4 seats on an undemanding schedule, at a price to the customer of £22.50 each… an off peak return to Leeds/Manchester would cost you £28.

 

Agree with that, and I do believe there's more scope for the "get on get off" model. However, Ben has already told us that the "enhanced" classes of travel sell out first, and as you've already identified, this would be the least likely market to fit that model.

 

All, one thing to please keep in mind when proposing these ideas. For each day out, you are asking a tour operator to commit to or risk a minimum of ₤20k>30k in operational costs, not including catering or marketing.

Regarding marketing – each quarter page ad in one of the glossy mags (xyz Life, Steam Railway, etc) are approx ₤400 per insertion. Direct mail marketing to 20,ooo households costs in the region of ₤7k, but you spread the cost over several trains. All in all, it is very easy to burn ₤5k in advertising for each trip.

If we tend to “play it safe” sometimes, I hope you understand why.

Now if someone would like to underwrite a trip, or place a group booking for 80 dining seats, we can pretty much guarantee the train will run….short of gauging issues….but that’s for another thread!

 

Yes indeed, and these are all up front costs of course, before you recognise any profit from the tour. So when planning 2014s tours, I guess you had to consider how much of the profit they were expected to make would need to be set aside to fund the planning / advertising of 2015's, all assuming of course, steam on the main line is still happening in 2015 ?

 

I would like to think that our cashflow situation is a bit healtheir than that!

 

Sometimes you need to take a risk to get reward, but I've been there before on this topic.
Someone will put their head above the parapet and I hope when they do they get the success they deserve

The problem with promoting mainline steam is the perceived size of the market, when someone takes it on themselves to "grow the neighbourhood a little" is the only time the light will turn on. Until then everyone remains in the dark.

Mainline steam needs a Michael o Leary to get it out of he sidings.

 

God help the steam movement if a Michael O'Leary type got involved. The current promoters may not be perfect but they're saints compared to Ryanscare.
I can just imagine the £25 railtour that has a £25 booking fee, a £15 fee to print your own ticket (or £45 to get one via the post), £15 to bring a camera, no reserved seats unless you pay another £15, premium rate phone line for all enquiries (if they answer it that is) and so on.