The Working Timetable Issue

Not sure if this is the right place to put this topic but it seems the most appropriate place, if not then Mods feel free to move to a more appropriate section.

The issue regarding access to working timetables for gala events seems to come up multiple times a year, more often than not it seems around the time of the Severn Valley steam galas.

Now I will admit there is a general inconsistency across the board with railways as to what their policies are regarding public access these documents, for example in my experience the Keighley & Worth and Mid Hants give out a simple WTT for their gala events for free via a document that can be downloaded from their website (and I assume a physical copy that can be obtained on the day), but the West Somerset print a full colour programme that includes the WTT for their main gala events and are sold at X amount both online (at a discount more recently) and at stations.

With regards to the Severn Valley in particular, there seems to be an inconsistency across all of their events. You can buy the full WTT that the crews etc are given for the Autumn Steam Gala, but for the Spring Gala a public leaflet is made available with train times and which locos are pulling each train, but no sign of light engine or ECS movements. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that different teams organise the different events so this may be down to different policies across the organising teams?

From a personal stand point, I don't mind either way having to pay for a full WTT or not, if a WTT is free then great, but if not then I'm happy to pay as I know it goes back into the railway. But invariably I am paying for much more than I actually need, for example the West Somerset and Severn Valley ASG WTTs I will look at the day/s that I require and then never look at the rest of the document, I'm sure a lot of people are the same.

To me it seems sensible to make each individual day available to those who want a particular day/s, as Mid Hants/Keighley seem to do, whether that be via a physical copy that can be posted prior to the event along with tickets, or a downloadable document. These could be made available alongside a full programme so people have the choice on which they would like, whether it be made available for free, at a small charge or in some kind of deal as Great Central do (purchase tickets, WTT is free, otherwise it's X amount). I know that writing a WTT takes a lot of time anyway, and this would require a little more time to make separate documents but ultimately seems like a smart idea in the long run. I'm not sure if there are railways doing this already so do make it known to me if there are!

I'd be interested to know what others think of that as a concept, and what you require from a WTT/would be willing to pay for said documents if they were charged for.

Adam

 

The case with the SVR is odd to say the least, particularly as what they sell for the ASG/pre2010 SSGs has been produced, as it is with every operational day of theirs. I thought it was odd them not charging in 2012 & 13 as surely they are losing hundreds of pounds, yet the WTT went up in price for the ASG last year and now there are none this time around.

Railways should make loco and coach sets available in my opinion with all workings, whether you need to pay or get it for free is up to said the railway.

EDIT - although some railways run ad-hock workings even on galas, such as a railway may have one operational base (say Llangollen) ECS they may just run as and when required before the start and end of the day, so I understand this can not be published.

 

Let's hear it for the South Devon Railway, who give out a WTT online with full details, well in advance of the gala days. I'm sure that being able to see what is on offer does encourage more people to come. In particular when there is a guest loco that people particularly want to see/ride behind or both (in my case), and it may not be running every day of the gala, so they can pick the right day.

John

 

I have asked the SVR about obtaining a WTT for the Spring gala. The following is from the email response I received from Phil Brown, SVR Operations Manager, last night.

"Whilst I can understand your point with regards to the working timetable you have to remember that ECS / Goods / Light workings can often run out of sequence meaning that if somebody starts walking with regards to the working timetable they can easily get caught out - this is one of the reasons for not issuing it. Whilst I am aware it may give a good guide this also strengthens the argument as to why the SVR is currently changing its rules with regards to PTS and linesiders. Once your current pass has expired then all renewels (or new entrants) will be required to attend a PTS course to ensure they are safe to be on the lineside and are not a danger to themselves, to the trains or to other members of staff​

By relying on the public timetable and therefore knowing that anything may approach from either direction at any time you are much more alert to your surroundings and will hopefully bear this in mind when setting up a shot."​

I think this argument is rather nebulous.

• Any scheduled train can potentially run out of sequence, whether it's in the WTT or just in the public timetable.
• If someone with the WTT might be caught out by an out of order train movement while walking between locations, then if they only have the public timetable to inform their judgements when it is safe to move, they're even more likely to be caught out.
• The inference of Phil's argument seems to be that the less a lineside photographer knows about likely train movements, the better. Personally, I feel the exact opposite.
• The SVR's has set a precedent in the past by publishing its WTTs, (Sometimes available for free, sometimes not.), and those for normal running days are currently available on the SVRLive web site.

I didn't get an answer to the question of whether or not staff working on the lineside were provided with the day's WTT or not. Perhaps there's someone on this forum who knows the answer to that. Nor did Phil respond to my query about what the SVR's liability would be if there should ever be an incident between a PTS carrying lineside photographer and a train that was in the WTT but not in the public timetable.

Personally, I've paid my £95 for my three year PTS and I'm more than happy to pay for an event WTT, just as I'm happy to buy a ticket for that event, regardless of whether or not I actually bother to ride on any of the services. It's all part and parcel of supporting the railway.

Moving off topic a bit, I have to say that the PTS 'course' that I attended in Bewdley on Saturday was a bit of a joke. I was expecting something similar to the course given at the WSR two years ago (presentations, videos and a test paper), but all we got was the test paper. It was all over in half an hour.

Cheers,

 

Loco diagrams should be available free and in advance, with all the usual caveats about "subject to availability"....
Fortunately, most of the people who turn up for Galas are bone-fide fare paying passengers, and many will want to know which locos are working what trains, so that they can plan their days in advance. eg; which end of the line to park.

If the loco diagrams are only available "on the day", it creates resentment and maybe some people won't bother to turn up at all, and others may only attend on one day, when they could have attended on 2 or 3 days of a gala.

 

Agreed, free and in advance. If you give them out free, it's clear that they're subject to availability, things often do and may well go wrong, they may change, etc. For this reason I would be very hesitant to pay for such info - when did you last go to a gala whose on-the-day timetable and rosters closely resembled those shown in version 1.0? Once you start charging people for this info, you're in dodgy territory when circumstances force changes to the published (and sold) info imo. Not to mention that, if the timetable and rosters are half-decent, it's another piece of advertising!

I would, however, be inclined to make a distinction between loco rosters and a working timetable. I believe the former, for the above reasons, should be available free and in advance as a matter of course. The latter, perhaps may bare charging for - providing the railway has an effective means of communicating updated info to customers* when things change. Advertising loco rosters will bring in more passengers, those who wish to travel behind a particular loco or can only make half the day and want to see something in particular, etc. Whether showing all freights/ECS moves will do the same, or simply help those on the surrounding footpaths, may be less clear-cut. I'd be inclined to think the GC have this about right at the moment - loco info for passenger trains free and online in advance, with a charge for the full info.

* In the sense of 'those who have bought a copy of the working timetable', as opposed to the MDTR term for 'passengers'.

 

What looks like the final word on the matter from Phil Brown by email today: -

"It is good to know that you've recently gone through the PTS course. The reason for having PTS is to allow you to go lineside without the need for a working timetable. Members of Staff who go lineside do so without a working timetable for guidance as they are trained to expect any train in any direction, this now applies to those who have recently undertaken the course.​

It is common for Spring that the SVR does not provide a Working Timetable for the public (including members) for the Spring Gala. One did, for a short period last year accidently appear on SVRlive, but this was an accident."​

Perhaps I blinked for a moment and missed all of the training given in Saturday's PTS course. The suggestion that any train can try to sneak up on you from any direction is rather worrying...

Cheers,

 

Nail hit firmly on head there Martin.

 

I think we need to distinguish two quite different situations.

The first is whether overall safety is enhanced or diminished by giving non-operational staff (specifically, lineside photographers) access to a WTT, especially when bearing in mind that operational reasons mean that there will be times when the WTT is no longer being followed (late running, train failed in section etc).

The second is what level of information should the general public expect about what is running - this issue is especially acute at galas. In other words, is it sufficient just to provide information about the times of trains, or is it expected that loco workings etc are also included?

My own personal view: I wouldn't want to comment on the first issue (about safety), except to say that anyone on the lineside needs to be aware that trains could appear from either direction at any time. If having a WTT breeds a false sense of complacency, that would be an issue.

On the second issue: I'd expect loco workings to be freely available, especially if the gala (in particular) has been advertised on the basis of a particular loco appearing. (Ditto carriages - if you have a gala in which you promise e.g. an Autocoach, it is reasonable that it should be freely available advance knowledge when the Autocoach is running so visitors can plan accordingly).

Whether that means a full WTT is a difficult issue: it may in some cases confuse the issue. For example, our WTT obviously includes the running of the Golden Arrow (which sometimes runs on gala weekends), but that train isn't available to the general public. So is it potentially confusing to publish a timetable that includes that working, when it isn't available to regular ticket holders?

The other point is the income from selling (rather than giving away) an "enhanced" timetable for a gala. If you don't sell a programme, that income has to be made up somewhere else (and accepting the point that publishing the workings may encourage extra visitors, which more than compensates for lost income - it would be difficult to measure, and in the end I suspect it is a matter of faith for gala organisers which way they choose to go).

Tom

 

I agree with you, having a lineside pass is more a privilege than it is a right, but I do understand the increased operational risk with the increased number of people on the lineside, which is why I see the PTS as a good thing as it does ensure people know what they SHOULD be doing when on the lineside, whether this is put into practice is another issue. But I would still believe that being in possession of a full WTT would be of benefit to any linesider, whether it be PW or photographer, so they know what should be the next thing coming down the track, while still remaining vigilant that anything could come from either direction. But while I have never owned a lineside pass for the Severn Valley, full WTTs are particularly useful on gala days when there are ECS and light engine movements being made, as it helps when planning the day to know that I may be able to get an extra shot of a certain loco when it's on a non-public working. With that information I may plan my day differently than if I didn't have said information.

I've only ever owned a lineside pass once, for the West Somerset for around 6 months a couple of years ago, and although yes it did give more freedom as to where I could go with regards to shots, but I still frequented all of my usual public locations which are just as adequate. As with the SVR, I've never had a pass, but still found enough public locations to keep me happy with enough walking and advice from others on where to go.

 

Martin, I don't think that this thread is about lineside access per se - it's about railways publishing (or not publishing) their WTT's for the benefit of their paying (I hope!) visitors. Whether to ride on the trains, or just to watch and/or photograph them a WTT is always going to be a more valuable aid to planning the detail of one's day out than the public timetable, regardless of whether one is on the linside or not.
Regarding your second point, for my part, I would say that only about 50% of my photography is done on the lineside on those railways that I have a permit for. Some lines (e.g. SVR and WSR) have more options from public areas than others (e.g. GCR). Part of the enjoyment of a day out with my camera is finding new locations to add variety to my photographs

Cheers,

 

Mick - I dont quite get the point you are making re trains can come from any direction.Were you trying to be sarcastic re trains approaching sideways? Perhaps either direction may be an appropriate phrase. The bigest risk in relying on the timetable is that an un-advertised move may occur. for example a rescue loco. In an extreme case you might find a train setting back from an obstruction. On a day to day basis even when a standard WTT is in operation there are a number of conditional paths which may or may not be used and so the next train may not appear from the direction expected.

Dave

p.s.Phils comments reinforce my stance taken in the SVR Gala thread

 

Indeed it was, lineside access is another area that I wasn't concerned about when starting the thread, so I would hope that the topic can remain on WTTs as apposed to that! If others would like to discuss that then feel free to start another thread.

 

Dave, humour, rather than sarcasm, was my intention. Phil's choice of 'any direction' instead of 'either direction' conjured up an image in my mind not unlike the scenes featuring hunting velociraptors in Jurassic Park II.

 

I only attend to travel. If no timetable with roster if available FOC in advance to me to decide whether the event justifies a visit and rover ticket I won't go.For that reason I have attended only one SVR Autumn gala in last 10 years but many running days.
Having seen svr roster for this weekend decided that as interested in 1638 mileage what Llangollen offers in two weeks is preferable to SVR-hence my money will be spent in Wales.

 

Whilst not perhaps everyone's first choice of phrase, 'any direction' is a perfectly reasonable term to use if the railway you're considering has areas where there is P & C that permits trains to approach on different tracks from 'either direction', or indeed (tongue firmly in cheek) 'sideways', if movements take place from sidings. Heritage railways are not all plain line single track from one end to the other!

NBDRL

 

I don't particularly see any requirement for those with lineside passes to have a WTT, what I do feel is that if the railway has light engine movements or ECS type positioning moves, then those are of valid interest to people visiting the railway to photograph/video or just watch the trains - even if they're doing so whilst looking out of the railway's cafe window. A 'public' timetable that only gives details of passenger services is of limited value in this respect as people might miss seeing things which would otherwise be of interest to them - eg. Perhaps the ability to watch something being shunted in the sidings/loop at Highley. Why does the SVR usually publish WTT on their website every other week of the year apart from galas if the information contained within them is not of use or interest to others?

Personally the only time I venture near the SVR on gala days is to view freight workings - I can see passenger trains any weekend. I see the 'goods' train is marked in the public timetable for the spring gala this year, but in previous years that hasn't always been the case.

 

So the SVR aren't issuing a WTT because they want to test the PTS holders? It's a single line railway, if a train has just gone by you know there is a minimum amount of time at least before the next train will be coming (unless the previous passing train sets back), as a train has to clear the section and token exchanged before the next train can enter the section (ok Kiddy-Bewdley is slightly different with the token aspect not being involved). I'd say it's far more dangerous to have no information on what the railway intends to do. And they make it sound as if they run to time in 100% of cases, a WTT generally is just an order of trains especially on a single line such as the SVR, unless extreme late running means trains have to be cancelled or swapped around.

The way it's going the ASG will be turn up and see what time the passenger trains are!

I think there will be some people living on the edge this weekend! Don't be surprised if due to this 'It's our train set and we don't want you to play with it' attitude somebody gets injured (Maybe this is what they want? To ban lineside passes? Maybe? Or is this a way of 'it's not our fault if somebody does get injured or worse' and the SVR do not have to cough up?).

I'm more concerned about the sets trains are formed of, if for example 4936 is on the GWR set then BR later in the day, I'd prefer to get a video of her on the BR rake. Why is this info not available?

 

Josh, if you want to discuss the issue of PTS and lineside safety could you please start another thread, I would prefer this thread to concentrate on WTTs, thank you.