The Working Timetable Issue

I'm not a SVR PTS holder, but I should imagine signing an application (as well as signing in on the day) constitutes signing a disclaimer against the SVR's liability?

(Not to mention that, if they really wanted to ban lineside passes, they'd just go ahead and do so!)

 

Am not too sure.....

By issuing lineside passes etc you are inviting unknown persons onto the railway......if something ever does happen to a person who has been issued a PTS/Lineside pass etc I hope the railway has covered its arse...cause i bet the courts will have a field day...

Oh and by the way a PTS course on the mainline is at least a two day course for "newbies"

 

Just a small point re tokens and estimating when the next train will arrive. Enthusiast E is near the end of a token section. Trains from A arrive in 2 minutes and clear the section at B 10 mins after passing E A train passes E towards B. E estimates the next train is likely 10 + 10+4 (4 min for token replacement and release) that is 24 minutes.Problem is the second train is also from A. The timing is 10+2(token replace)+2(token release) +2 run time =16min and from the oposite direction expected.

Dont rely on time- use the ears and eyes

 

Enthusiast E might not be too sure which direction the next train is coming from, but if the rough estimates say at least 24 minutes from one direction and at least 16 minutes from the other, then in either case there's probably at least a 10 minute train free window before anything else arrives, assuming the train already in section doesn't come backwards.

....of course that doesn't mean they have 10 minutes to be totally ignorant of everything around them.

 

Lets be honest here, heritage railways have no requirement to issue WTT to the general public (enthusiasts), if they do decide to release what can possibly be viewed as a confidential operational document, and I can understand why some railways may not wish to release this information, then surely this should be considered as an extra benefit. I presume however that what most people on here would be happy with is not the full WTT but a somewhat slimmed down document giving departures/arrivals of trains (including freight movements), but it may be that man hours do not allow time a reworking of the timetable for this. Then there is the availability of locomotives and/or stock may cause a problem in producing a WTT far enough in advance of an event to allow the publishing of information that may need to change at the last minute. Maybe it is that a view is taken to prevent disappointment by not publishing something that could well change?

On the subject of charging, presuming that a printed timetable is made available why shouldn't a railway charge for this? After all there is a cost in producing/printing it and this may not be recouped from the admission/ticket prices, particularly as some photographers aren't keen on paying for a ticket! Galas cost money to put on, particularly if a visiting engine is appearing, and all revenue streams should be explored to maximise this.

 

But trains and time do not bypass physics laws, so time usually can be relied on at first. If a section takes 10mins to complete after passing a photographer it can not be done in 3. I wasn't saying it's an exact science, but common sense tells you once a train has left Bewdley northbound for example, the next train isn't able to leave until roughly 13 minutes time.

 

Not necessarily so. I can think of at least one location on the Bluebell that is within bounds for a lineside photographer where two trains could pass by within a couple of minutes; I'd imagine that a similar situation could occur on other heritage railways.

Tom

 

My view as a regular gala attendee who attends entirely to travel on the trains, often behind a particular loco or combination of locos, is that railways who do not provide a free set of passenger loco diagrams are potentially losing revenue.

There have been a number of occasions when there have been gala clashes which have meant that tough decisions have to be made. Ultimately if one railway is telling me what I can travel behind and when and another is not telling me this then my money will be spent at the railway telling me what I need to know. I have had occasions in the past when I have travelled to a railway for a particular engine to find that it is doing very little if anything passenger wise that day. A classic example would be the West Somerset planning to put the visiting S160 out on freight trains on the Saturday of a gala a few years ago. Public opinion on publishing of the timetables ultimately changed this rostering so that it worked passenger trains that day but the fact remains that without pre published diagrams, I could have driven to Somerset, bought my rover and then found out that the loco was on freights and been very disappointed. The same I'm afraid applies for lines that charge for this information in advance as I don't wish to pay for a document that, if it shows that the engine I want isn't performing (as per the S160 example) then I wouldn't attend and my £3 plus postage would have been wasted. As another example, last years West Somerset spring gala clashed with the Severn Valleys. I had planned to attend both as they each had a Flat Top (34007 and 34070) visiting. On the Saturday I ended up snowed in and could only attend one day and picked the Valley as I knew that I could have two round trips off 34007 off Kidderminster (the most convenient starting point for me), a WTT having been published on their website, whereas I had no idea of 34070's movements as I would have had to pay for these. This is despite my preference for the Wizzer and my belief that Manston is the superior of the two locos.

Unfortunately a number of railways seem to work on the basis that they 'must make the photographers pay' - just look at how this discussion has headed straight into PTS territory. Whilst there will always be a debate as to how many of those at the lineside has contributed and I have sympathy for those who have planned an event wanting to recoup their costs, it must not be forgotten that the lions share of the income comes from paying passengers. Assuming that a WTT costs £5 and a rover ticket costs £25, you need to sell five WTT's to offset one passenger who has been put off by the lack of pre published information. This doubles for every punter who would have brought their partner with them as I tend to on my gala visits.

I can only plead to those reading this who make the decisions as to what information is made available and how, please let us the paying passengers know what you intend to put out on the passenger trains for that ultimately is why we attend your galas. In a highly competitive market, this may be the make or break decision as to whether we attend your gala or your competitors.

JP

 

If you think back a couple of years the only way of knowing what loco and stock was running on the Severn Valley was to stand and wait and see what turned up! I can only applaud the level of information which is now freely available week in week out. Now with a look on the internet and armed with my lineside pass I know I can drop her indoors at the shops dash over to Bewdley and see the undoubted spectacle of the manor with 8 blood and custard mk 1's blasting out of Bewdley right way round! So on balance I think we are lucky. We certainly wouldn't have had this level of information under the regimes of certain General Managers of the past! With regard to gala WTT's I do find the stance over the Spring gala a bit odd but if that is how it is then so be it I will still be there in a position of safety enjoying the SVR time machine!

Dave

 

So what if the train needs to set back?
If you assuming the above, and not keeping a good lookout when lineside, then please hand your PTS back as you are a danger to yourself and others.
No, I don't have a PTS, but have friends and family who have / had, and have been told enough stories of mishaps / fatalities / near misses on the big railway, even though those involved believed they were following the rules and had everything covered.

 

My purely personal opinion (if I'm allowed one...) is that the railway should, whether free or not, provide the set diagrams to the public for view. The current SVR stance is odd and confusing in all fairness. The WTT is available for ASG so why not the SSG? Why the difference? I don't know...The lineside reason doesn't hold because it is being sold for the ASG. And anyone within the boundary fence should be paying attention anyway.
I'm reminded of a recent email about protecting revenue and can't help thinking the management have managed to harm the takings themselves.

 

There is another scenario which enthusiasts may not be aware which can happen at intermediate stations such as Arley, Highley and Hampton Load - shunting in section ocupied by a departing train.

A train is in sidings when a normal departure leaves with token. Photer observes train leave from near station and gets a suprise when the stabled set shunts on to the single line to exit siding. Shunting into section with a train going away is allowed under signalmans rules

 

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A WTT was issued, free to download, on SVRLive on 13 March 2012 (see Clark_T's post on P4 of http://forum.svra.org.uk/viewtopic.php?t=2305&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45).

A WTT was issued, free to download, on SVRLive on 16 March 2013 (see Danny252's post on P5 of http://forum.svra.org.uk/viewtopic.php?t=2683&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60).

Patrick

 

Ooo - does this mean the official SVR response has been 'economic' with the truth??!! Lol.
To 'accidentally' publish something online last year is perhaps one thing, but to do it for two consecutive years in a row does suggest a bit of a growing trend - hardly the "It is common for Spring that the SVR does not provide a Working Timetable for the public (including members) for the Spring Gala." that the railway is trying to claim!

Don't think I'll be loosing much sleep over it all though, as stated more than once - the railway's under no 'duty' to publish a working timetable, and for a gala where the intention is for enthusiasts to travel back and forth all day they could even argue the train service is so regular there's no need for any published timetable beyond the time of the first and last departure/arrival of the day.

 

There is as with so many things on this forum a continuum of views from those who will not visit a railway if they do not know exactly when a particular loco will run to the other end where people are happy to turn up and see what is on a particular train. I think there are quite a few diesel fans who will not visit unless they know exactly what is running and when.

What I don't know and I would guess no one else will is at what point on the continuum do most enthusiasts (rather than those who post on forums) sit and whether providing more information has a measurable impact on attendance.

 

For all of those who are desperate to know the details of the WTT, there is a very kind offer from a poster on the SVR Online site of a copy. I personally feel that it should be made available to everyone, regardless of whether you are trackside or not (I personally am not). I do not see the harm in posting it compared to any other WTT from a normal day of running - it should make no difference. LE movements can happen on any day (eg: the 08 rescue of SKP recently was completely unplanned) and so lineside walkers should be just as vigilant on a normal day as they are on a gala day. It has started me thinking that perhaps the SVR dont wish to publish this information so that people (in particular photographers) don't know, and then are forced to look at charter workings to guarantee a particular loco with particular stock. Two plus two equals four thousand possibly, but I dont see any other explanation...

 

Is his name Edward Snowden by any chance?

 

We live in an age where many people expect all the information they want to be instantly available (by payment or otherwise). Given that WTT's have been published before raises an expectancy bias. As an SVR member and lineside pass holder, I'd buy one if it's available and live without one if it's not. TBH I'm more worried about the weather forecast!

 

I'm not fussed about having a full working timetable, but knowing what locos are working passenger services should be available for free. If I'm only travelling, I want to know what locos to go for and where to bail out for something else. The GCR have got it right in my opinion - passenger timetables with loco and stock allocations available for free in advance, but full WTT available in a brochure for purchase (or free with a ticket) including LE moves and freights.

For the photographer, the SVR is a bit different in that it has something other than Mk 1s on every service. I'd like to know what stock is being used with what loco if I'm photting. It's available on the traffic notices for ordinary running days, so why not galas?

 

The Met Office online forecast for Bridgnorthdoesn't look too bad.