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Cumbrian Coast Express April 12th.

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by RalphW, Mar 22, 2014.

  1. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    I am told that Galatea may not be able to haul this one as there are gauging issues on the Cumbrian coast line. This also does not bode well for the Great Britain as Galatea was to double head with Scots Guardsman from Grange to Edinburgh.
     
  2. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Don't you just love it the way these things are set up and publicised well in advance but actually nothing is certain as no-one at NR bothers to do the maths or anyone first actually checks that a Jub will fit. So no Galatea would mean no Scots Guardsman, I presume. That gets us down to a Black 5, possibly. The next thing will be NR realising that they can't path it without steam coming off at Carlisle and we come all the way back with Les Ross that pops up to collect us while we trundle around the coast.

    On the other hand if we get SG instead then that's fine especially for the return. But I'm not sure it'll be that easy. As for GBVII, this is a flagship trip so when the route around the coast was proposed to NR, they must have confirmed that steam would be ok and that the identified locos would be in gauge. Or am I missing something?
     
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  3. Paul42

    Paul42 Part of the furniture

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    I had a conversation with a fellow passenger on the WCME, who though that for it to work(time wise) we might have Less Ross from Carlisle on the return.I am booked on the one in June.
    46115 if it fits would be better for me since I have not travelled behind it yet( I have been behind Galatea twice).
     
  4. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    Last time I was round the coast steam hauled it was both ways with the Duke of Gloucester, it would seem Jubilees are bigger.....
     
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  5. Drysdale

    Drysdale Guest



    I've been round the coast behind Gresley, Scotsman, Lord Nelson and City of Wells, all of which must be smaller than a Jubilee. Perhaps the ultimate expansion of Einstein's theory of relativity is correct - hence the phrase "less equals more".
     
  6. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    The opportunity to do the coastal route is brilliant. It is rare track and I jumped at the opportunity for the April trip. When I saw it was being repeated in June and that GBVII was using the route as well, I assumed that some early work with NR had sorted out the tight clearances and gauging generally.

    Here's the next bit of potential fiction about the timings. Every steam trip that's gone around the coast has taken about 4 hours from Carnforth. Yet the provisional timings reckon we'll get from Preston to Carlisle in four hours and that's including changing from electric to steam at Carnforth. Somehow the two hours at Carlisle is looking unlikely.

    Don't get me wrong. I've booked. It's a great itinerary but are we into the first bit of speculation (with my money) of 2014? End of rant.
     
  7. GBoreham

    GBoreham Member

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    I'm not buying that excuse from NR for one second; if A4's, Scots, Lord Nelson and unrebuilt WC's can all get round the coast then a Jubilee, which is the same shape as a Black 5, should get round there no problem. That's almost as stupid as NR saying last year that 46115 & 48151 were banned from Chester because of gauging issues...
     
  8. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    I would not say it's an excuse, more like the computer says no....
     
  9. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Am tempted to ask if the computer's conversion factor converting metric to feet / inches is accurate !
     
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  10. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Have A4's etc been round the coast? The old 1980's trains (like the santa specials etc) only went as far as Seascale (well Sellafield to turn) and I know we did that with 850 and 4498 on a number of occasions, how much has gone north of there where I know the gauging is bloody tight.

    I know that the Duke has; it went round at v.short notice on a Saturday after Greyrigg happened on the Friday night - example of when NR can move swiftly!

    Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk
     
  11. 46223

    46223 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I went as far as Maryport with 46229 on 11-8-82, but beyond there was a no go area for steam specials because of tight clearances.
    I'm a bit out of touch these days, so have things changed in the last 30 odd years?
     
  12. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I've been wondering about booking this. I reckon I'll wait and see what actually happens on 12th April and then decide about the June one.
     
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  13. 46203

    46203 Member

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    I don't think things have changed at all within the last 30 years, or even from when the M&C was actually built. The tight clearances are between Maryport & Carlisle, if memory serves me right, it is the bridges that are the problem regarding the use of C1 stock. Railwaymen will joke that there are three four foots, no 6 foot! Steam-hauled charter trains in the preservation era, have ran from Carnforth to destinations at Sellafield, Maryport, and Workington during the 1980s and 1990s. The usual working was to employ the locomotive sitting at Upperby that had worked a northbound CME some days earlier, to run light engine to, say, Workington for example, to be in position to work the return CCE as far as Carnforth. The locomotive that had worked the CCE north to Workington from Carnforth, would then run light to Upperby to be in position for the next southbound CME. Locos that I am aware of that have been involved in such workings, have included: 850, 4472, 4498, 34092, and 46203. Just to rub salt into the wound, 5690 was involved on 18.06.83. There will be more locomotives that have been involved, to be sure. Support coaches weren't allowed to travel with the locomotives between Maryport & Carlisle. These were tripped between Carnforth & Upperby using the WCML. On a northbound CCE, the support coach would be left at 10A but would be on 12B upon arrival there!

    When 71000 ran between Maryport & Carlisle, complete with train, in 2007, it ran as would an out of gauge load. In other words, nothing was allowed to pass on the opposite road, other than at Wigton station. 71000 was red flagged at Wigton box and then allowed into the station to wait on clearance. A Maryport bound service train, which had been held at signals outside Wigton, then ran into the station to make its stop before 71000 was given the road. In the words of Max Boyce - 'I know, cos I was there'!
     
  14. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I'm having trouble understanding this. The working with 71000 and the joke about "three four foots" imply that it's the gap between up and down tracks that's too narrow, but you also say "it is the bridges that are the problem". And, if various locos can run light over that section but the coaches can't go that way, why are the service trains OK?
     
  15. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    When the Maryport and Carlisle Railway opened in 1845 it was originally single line. I think that the doubling may not have involved the widening of all overbridges, hence the tight clearances. One way to do that was also to have the tracks closer together so that poses clearance problems on both sides of the carriage. Add to that a steam locomotive that is wider than a typical coach and you get the situation where a steam train cannot pass another service in particular sections. That makes it a long and complicated way round. I think that's the gist of it.
     
  16. iancawthorne

    iancawthorne Well-Known Member

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    71000 and 60163 are the only steam loco's I can think of that have done the Cumbrian Coast Line to Carlisle in the last 10 years.

    60163 was April 2010.
     
  17. 6:05 special

    6:05 special Well-Known Member Loco Owner

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    I guess this guaging issue is falling wihin the new rule that NR have introduced that if any locomotive has not been over a particular route within the last 12 months it is deemed to be out of guage until a re-gauging exercise has taken place irrespective of how many times that locomotive may have been over that route in the past. Eg. 70013 banned into Liverpool Street for the re-run of the "Wandering 1500" and A4's into Carlisle. As no steam locomotive has been over the Cumbrian Coast route within the last 12 months it implies all steam locomotives are currently out of guage including Black5's. This seems to have been a major error / omission in the planning process of this trip before it was advertised and needs sorting quickly not only for 12 April but also for GB VII.
     
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  18. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    What is the problem from Maryport to Carlisle is the clearances between the side of the coaches and bridges and I believe in some places the clearance from opposing traffic, hence the reluctance to allow stock to be used where passengers can stick their heads etc out of windows.
    When the Duke ran that way, the northbound was planned via the coast, it was the return the same way that was the short notice re route, originally intended to be diesel hauled and only once at Carlisle was the change made to allow the Duke to haul the return.
     
  19. wcmlbls1846

    wcmlbls1846 Well-Known Member

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    The Duke worked two tours round the coast in 2007. This was immediately after the Grayrigg Pendolino crash had closed the booked return route via Shap. The first tour, from Manchester, returned via the coast. The second, from Leeds, returned via Hexham and York. A few pix here:

    http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/17160417_r7jnkn#!i=1300698880&k=Rx6FzVC

    No window hanging was allowed between Maryport and Carlisle.

    Some photos of Tornado's 2010 tour, which returned via Settle, are here:

    http://andrewstransport.smugmug.com...-2010/26536120_fXbjFn#!i=2217132725&k=NjP24cD

    Cheers

    Andrew N
     
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  20. gwr4090

    gwr4090 Part of the furniture

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    Gauging is not really an exact science. The clearances required on a route depend on how long since the route was last measured by the gauging train. The longer the interval the greater the clearances required, to allow for possible track movement etc. So a locomotive which has traversed a particular route may subsequently be declared out-of-gauge even though nothing has actually changed. I believe the gauging train covers the whole country roughly every four years.
     

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