Can anyone identify this engine and location?

the name on the tank is Woodhill and the location may have something to do with Liverpool - any suggestions/ideas would be appreciated

 

Well found Doug but after 2 hours searching the best info I can find is that the design is similar to the GER Y5 class which was built by Nielson Reid - a possibility supported by the saddle tank which is described as "typically Scottish" in an image of a similar locomotive built for export by a company called Murray, Patterson which ceased trading before 1900. The question is whether this loco was built by Nielson & Co; Nielson Reid or North British Locomotive Company which are trading names of the company between 1870 and 1905.

 

Why not post it on the IRS yahoo website?

3155

 

Thank you Fred, interesting - I'm just wondering how it came to be in a box of family photos, unless one of the gentlemen in the photo is related to me.

There used to be a similar row of houses near the entrance to Edge Hill shed but no running lines when I used to visit in the 60's - the structure to the right of the houses is puzzling.

Can't really tell from the photo but is it standard or narrow gauge?

I'm sorry 3155 you've lost me there - a link would be useful unless you are referring to the Revenue!

 

IRS = Industrial Railway Society (I think).

 

Whilst searching through the NBL orders (1903 onwards) I noted a large number of 0-4-0STs being sold to W Baird - an engineering firm that had colliery interests in the Scottish and North Eastern areas; the structure looks similar to a shipyard frame so I wonder if the loco had been bought by a shipbuilder such as Cammel Laird of Birkenhead - and possibly second hand if Baird's decided to buy more powerful locomotives (0-6-0T) as their businesses grew ? I can't recall building prior to 1968 (my first visit to Liverpool !) but I presume the same type of buildings would exist on both sides of the river hence could it be a Birkenhead-located Industrial locomotive.

 

Although nothing to do with Liverpool there is a Woodhill in Greenwich and there were a significant number of engines that worked the docks over the years including 'Coffee Pots'.
Does the original photo show any greater detail of the works plate, maybe to find the odd number? Are there four digits on the plate? That may rule out one of the options.

 

The loco is certainly a standard gauge Neilson "ogee" tank as mostly supplied to industry but one ex GER example is preserved. (It was at North Woolwich but now at Flour Mill I think.) The structure on the right is similar to one used for an overhead crane in the goods yard on the opposite side of the Dock Rd to Alexandria dock in Liverpool but I can't think of any similar house close to there. There is also a "Woodhill" near Highley on the SVR but I don't think there's any connection. Ilvaporista's suggestion of Woolwich is worth looking into. The IRS or the Industrial Loco Society should be able to help. Ray.

 

Just followed my own advice and looked in the ILS loco name index and the only "Woodhill" listed was owned by C Kellner - presumably Castner Kellner who had a plant in Runcorn. Unfortunately no builder or works no was listed. Ray.

 

Definitely not in the Edge Hill area. The houses by the loco shed were built in the early 1900s and are a different design than those in the photo.

 

Definitely ask the IRS. They publish "mystery photos" like this in their regular journals and almost always someone will come up with the answer.
http://www.irsociety.co.uk/

Phil (IRS member, but sadly not a knowledgeable member!)

 

Great stuff guys and much appreciated, the depth of knowledge here never fails to amaze, NP at its best! .

Cammel Lairds or the docks certainly makes sense, although the proximity of the houses is puzzling. I'll mosey on over to irsociety and see if any more info comes about (thanks for the explanation of IRS).

The original is not much clearer in respect of the makers plate, possibly specialist equipment might reveal something.

 

It is an unusual worksplate if this is a Neilson, NR or NBL. Andrew Barclay and Black Hawthorn used large plates but it is difficult to see the exact layout.

 

It could be an owner's plate. Ray.

 

Can you get a higher resolution scan of the cabside plate? Seems as if it might be useful. Even if it doesn't seem any clearer a lot of pixels might give edge detection software something to work with.

 

I don't think its a Neilson, although there are some hints that are similar to the NBR Y9's which were a Neilson design. Black Hawthorn seems a good suggestion. It is certainly not the same design as a GER Y5 despite the ogee tank. They have horizontal cylinders and are longer with a longer wheelbase. (or possibly are lower in relation to the wheels - anyway, the proportions are different is my point!) See http://www.lner.info/locos/Y/y5.shtml

 

Just to rule out a couple of suggestions - source IRS Cheshire handbook. Cammel Laird never owned a locomotive fitting this description - only Hudswell Clarks, a Hawthorn Leslie and the rest Sentinels. Only one Neilson 0-4-0st worked in Birkenhead - named Neilson and owned by Lennox and Co, location of business unknown. The various shunting contractors in Birkenhead Docks had nothing that fits the bill.Lever Brothers Port Sunlight had a BH 0-4-0 st named 'Mersey' but nothing else that is likely. Cudworth and Johnson of Wrexham supplied a lot of hire locootives to Merseyside but again nothing that fits the bill.

Not a Mersey Docks and Harbour Co locomotive but could belong to any number of private concerns in the dock area - I don't have the IRS handbook for Liverpool.

Not only Neilson and BH had locos with 'ogee' shaped tanks. One of the above named shunting contractors. Joseph Perrin and Co, had a Robert Stephenson 0-4-0st [2668 of 1889] named 'Sulphur' and this had an 'ogee' tank, picture of it in the IRS handbook and it looks very similar to 'Woodhill'.

 

The loco is listed in the IRS publication - 'Handbook G : Industrial Locomotives of Cheshire, Shropshire + Herefordshire' - which is an amalgam of the earlier smaller handbooks. It is listed on Page 21 under Imperial Chemical Industries Ltd at their Castner-Kellner Works, Weston Point, Runcorn. It is shown as an 0-4-0ST - named 'Woodhill' but - as an earlier post stated - without any builder details. Certainly not an NBL loco and as the IRS hadnt identified it, it is possibly a rebuild or from one of the smaller foundries that did build small numbers of locos. Whatever, the cabside plate is probably the key - again not a Barclay plate and may well be an owners plate - sending a copy to the IRS will probably produce some positive info.

 

A quick check of the internet on Castner Kellner found this :

Photographic exhibitions are a case in point and if you have a few moments to spare, a visit to Widnes Library is well worth the effort. There, on the second floor, the 8D Association (8DA) has put on a display which embraces nearly all, if not all, aspects of the steam locomotive era which was very much a part of everyday life in our neck of the woods.

This suggests (1) contacting the 8D Association (2) contact Mr Dobbs who used to work with the company.

Hope this helps