Kerr Stuart Builders Plate

My sister in law has a Kerr Stuart builders plate, assumed to be original - 4451 of 1930, a GWR 5700 pannier tank. The other plate appears to be in the NRM collection https://www.google.co.uk/search?sou...art+4451&gs_l=hp..0.41.0.0.0.2317...........0.

She wants to sell but would like to know if it is worth bothering to do so. Can anyone advise please?

Thanks, Howard

 

Only 25 of the Class were built by Kerr Stuart, so it is a bit of a rarity.
Well worth getting in touch with one of the railwayana auction houses for advice.

 

If you can send a .jpg of front and back and detailed measurements - width - height and thickness we would be pleased to look it over. Send to enquiries@gnrauctions.co.uk We have scheduled our next auction for the 31st January 2015 - suject to confirmation, and a Kerr Stuart plate would hold its head up anywhere.

We have uploaded our Alpha Lots onto the website www.gnrauctions.co.uk this afternoon, so everything to be included in our June 7th Auction is now listed - pictures of almost every lot in the main catalogue are provided.

Don't forget - we are unique in not charging a buyers premium, like the good old days we are all nostalgic about - as we believe in low cost high value service.

No-one else offers such good value in the market today!

 

Thanks for that GNR Auctions, when I next see my sister in law I'll borrow the plate and do as you suggest.

 

Hi
A word of caution. KS 4451 has been around for a while with several copies surfacing. It was certainly rejected after an auction at Bonhams in Knowle (outside Birmingham) some years ago (c.2003) as a known 'replica'. I am sure GNR Auctions can advise when they see it, but beware as it does have a history.

The one at Knowle was identical - right down to the dints & marks - with that in the NRM. Far too much of a coincidence.

How do I know - well I bought it and then compared it to the NRM plate and promptly was given an instant refund by Bonhams!

Barry

 

Thanks for that Barry. I'll get hold of the plate as soon as I can and compare it to the photo of the the one in the NRM collection.

 

I now have the plate but can no longer find the photo of the similar NRM plate! Possibly the dint above the first R in KERR will identify this as being a copy to anyone who has seen the original.

 

Having had another look I've found the photo and there does seem to be a similar dint in the same place.

 

I would let the 'experts' have a look at it and make their careful judgement. There are (at least) 3 places where very similar marks appear - as you say, above the first 'R' in Kerr Stuart, then above the 'E' on Trent and about one inch below the right hand bolt hole. Those dints are on both plates, which seems somewhat coincidental to me. Also they are identical to the plate I returned to Bonhams. The back of the plate is often a reasonable clue to its past, although I suspect the NRM plate has been cleaned all over.

Difficult to be sure, but I would be fairly suspicious of its origins.

Barry

 

Thank you Barry. One of them is a copy and I doubt that it's the one in the NRM!

 

Take the exact measurements and compare with a known genuine Kerr Stuart plate. Take a shot of the back, and have a look at Lot 364 in our last auction on June 7th.

I think you will see some immediate causes for concern as regards the plate in your possession

 

Not quite sure what you are getting at. There seems to be negligible wear around the bolt holes on the 'GWR' example which is often a give away, as opposed to the 4F plate in the auction. However the different wording and full stop are correct for the plate. Anyway fortunately not my problem, but I am fairly sure it's a copy and dependent how good, the measurements might show that. I would expect it to be 12 3/4inches by 6 3/4 inches.

Barry

 

Here is a shot of the rear of the plate. It's 12 1/2 x 6 1/2.

 

If you take a copy casting from an already existing item (eg. a works plate), then the copy will be smaller than the original by the shrinkage rate of the material it is made from. This rate varies a bit, but for brass can be around 1.3-1.5%.

If the original is 12.75" by 6.75", then a copy made from an original plate (rather than from an original wooden pattern, which would be 1.5% larger than an original plate) would be about 1.5% smaller. ie. 12.55" x 6.65" ...so a shade over 12-1/2" x 6-1/2". On this basis it suggests the plate above is a copy from an original, rather than an original itself.

Of course a 'proper' reproduction would require the production of a pattern 1.5% larger than final size so the repro-plate comes out the same as an original, but that's a lot of work for a small non-critical size difference, so it's easier to just use an original plate as a pattern.

 

Agree completely with this.

Barry

 

The dimensions of the plate at the NRM are: -
319mm (12.560") x 166mm(6.535") x 7mm(0.276")

 

I hope Mr. Coulls doesn't mind.

 

Having checked the one I have the dimensions are identical, as are all the dints. So, the NRM one must be a copy too? I had thought from the outset that the one I have was a copy as my late brother wouldn't have dreamed of paying more than a few pounds for something. He was of the view that collectors had ruined the market for the average person with an interest in railways. Can anyone suggest a value for this plate please? I doubt that my sister in law will want to sell but she did ask if I could find it's value.

 

The plate at the NRM is work stained, so is original. Clearly, someone has gone to the trouble of making a pattern and some very good castings, quite some time ago.
The two major replica plate companies both do a Kerr Stewart plate, 4364 and 4167 respectively. Prices are £95 and £81.