North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

Looking at the above - is there a description of the track layout and signalling anywhere? For example, when running round, is it a hand point at the buffer-stop end and the ground frame shown in photo J at the other end of run round? Who is responsible for changing the points etc - is that the loco crew, or is there a signalman or similar?

Just curious really, especially in the context of a run-round that, according to the above, took 12 minutes - smart work I think, especially with a new installation and people still gaining familiarity.

Tom

 

There is quite an extensive ground-frame at the south end, shown in one of the photographs (Picture 10). At the buffer stop end, there is a much smaller Ground Frame, the back of which is visible in the second photograph of the B1 on the stops.

There is a Ground Frame operator involved. I haven't been briefed on the process (Steve is trained on the layout and will be able to correct any errors) but my understanding is that incoming train stops on the main south of Bog Hall Crossing (at the end of the wall in front of the cottages - see Picture 10 again). The token is taken to insert into the Ground Frame, the road is set and a point indicator illuminated for the train to proceed into the platform. When it is in clear, the road is reset and the token returned to the machine. The buffer stop end ground frame is used to access the run-round and then the main Ground frame and "headshunt" towards Bog Hall Sidings (picture 10 again) to run round, all clear of the branch running line and token section. A train can and indeed a couple of times a day will be approaching from Glaisdale to use Platform 1.

Upon departure, the token is again obtained and inserted in the main ground frame to release the lever for the points to the main. When the road is set, the point indicator in picture 13 will illuminate and the train may proceed clear of Bog Hall Crossing. The Ground frame is then reset and the token taken by the Ground frame operator to the loco, which is near the high level "new bridge" at the other end of Bog Hall Sidings.

Simples!

Steven

 

You can just about make out the track layout from the diagram on the ground frame. Basically, it is one platform road with a loop off it. There is a crossover from pl2 to the running line, the crossover leading to the two Bog Hall sidings. Bog Hall sidings are currently out of use and locos are only allowed to proceed sufficiently far to clear the loop turnout.
There are two ground frames. The main 8 lever ground frame (as shown in photo J) controls the entry/exit from platform 2 to the running line, together with the south (country end) of the loop and is generally operated by a travelling ground frame operator. Lever 1 is the FPL. Lever 2 is the King lever, released by the token. Levers 3 & 4 control the crossover (one lever for each turnout. ) Lever 7 is the release lever for the loop, released by an Annetts key (the shunt key), which is kept in a locked box. Reversing lever 7 enables you to reverse lever 5 which, in turn releases the second ground frame at the buffer stop end. This second ground frame (3 levers) is operated by the fireman. On this frame lever 1 is the release lever, lever 2 the FPL and lever 3 the point lever. Back at the main ground frame, lever 8 is the FPL and lever 6 operates the loop points. There are no signals, only stop boards and point indicators.

And, if you're not confused by that, you ought to be! I'm sure that, in more economical times, all this could have been done with a 3 or 4 lever frame and a two-way lever box at the buffer stop end. Another wonderful feature of operation is that someone has to check the buffer stop after each run round to see if the loco has contacted it and, if so, report it!

Edit. Reading Bean Counter's description together with mine should enable you to become a fully qualified ground frame operator.

 

The run round can be achievedfairly quickly. the problem seems to be offloading 400 passengers and then loading 400 passengers. That is taking a little longer!

 

Thanks Steve and Steven - I think I followed that! Seems slightly protracted to have to stop every train on the way in and the way out, but I assume that is so that mainline trains can run directly in and out of platform 1 without hinderance when everything is left in the normal position.

Why do you need a ground frame and point lock at the buffer stop end? Wouldn't a simple hand point be sufficient - after all, there will never be a passenger move over that point. Is that a Network Rail requirement?

Tom

 

Quite possibly, you normally only see hand points when 'yard working' in in place which doesn't happen on a running line.

 

Without looking at the photos - if you top n tailed - can you then run right to the buffer stops and passengers still get out the first coach?

 

Based on that weekday timetable being planned around an all steam NYMR service I've convinced the other half that a mini break in North Yorkshire is a good idea. The fact we'll be there for the last day of the gala is coincidental.

 

The limiting factor would be the length of the full height platform and the fence along the edge of the lower section. The Facing Point Lock would appear to permit an incoming train to run beyond the clearing point for run round (Steve may know a definitive ruling on this), so I suspect you wouldn't be far off the loco being able to run well down towards the buffer for de-training if top and tail or, when the train empty, time to propel back either into the Platform loop or, when recommissioned, Bog Hall Sidings.

The original version of the plan which became Platform 2 was a run round for platform 1, and that foresaw the running line ending with a stop board short of the buffer stop, so all trains had to stop, detach loco and loco only draw forward (on a siding" in effect) past a hand point. Neil has explained why this wouldn't be permitted these days, and detailed checking of timings involved showed that extra trains wouldn't have been readily possible with such a system because the 2 extra departures involve an NYMR train remaining at Whitby while a Northern service comes in from Glaisdale to Whitby and back. Hence, with only 1 platform, you would have still had to propel the set into Bog Hall sidings and return the token to the machine near Platform 1 buffer stops once inside. There are some who think that would be possible, but I and others have timed it and you would need to allow 15 to 20 minutes to be sure of having the token in the machine for Northern to obtain their token at Glaisdale, which would have made extra trains impossible to schedule (i.e. on a good day with the right crew, a following wind and everything else going to plan, you might make it but not sustainably enough to base a daily timetable on it).

Steven

 

It seems from the pictures that the train has to stop with the leading coach a very long way from the buffer stops, hence the new platform having to extend so far beyond the end of Platform 1. But why is so much length needed for the turnout to the loop? What was the arrangement in the days of regular steam operation, before DMUs arrived?

 

There were never run-round facilities in the Station prior to this week, as far as I am aware! There were (at the peak) 4 Platform roads, with a centre road for stabling between the 2 long platforms but this was never connected to either platform road to allow run-round. Either a shunting loco would need to draw stock off, the train engine propel the stock out to sidings near the present Bog Hall Sidings or a different loco take the train out.

I believe some services along the coast line from Saltburn to Scarborough would drop down into Whitby Town and then propel back up to Prospect Hill Junction before continuing south again.

Steven

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-28803121

I was wondering why the first train today was t&t. According to realtime trains the 2nd loco might have returned light later. Talking of realtimetrains, the database currently has an odd service for tomorrow, although RTT isn't always correct.

David

 

The train today was top'n'tailed basically for publicity purposes. It enable two steam locos to be posed side by side for the press. I should have been on one of them but obviously my face wasn't photogenic enough and I ended up on 44806 on the Pickering - Grosmont section.
The new T/T starts tomorrow so, if you are thinking of visiting, make sure you consult the new T/T and not the old!

 

My big mouth predicting fate!

Spent the early part of the week on NYMR and it isn't performing that well, but I could say 'told you so' I suppose. You cannot run the giant operation that is the NYMR expecting 100% availability of your rescources, which are insufficient in the first place.

Timekeeping (which is rarely that good) is now a serious problem with some very tight margins to keep out of the way of Northern. I can see Northern questioning if the timetable is acceptable if the NYMR cannot deliver a consistent on-time operation. Tuesday was dire with 45428 and 61264 both being unavailable, leaving D7628 (which in turn is a bit poorly) to cover all of Whitby during part of the day, which is impossible. The 13:00 Pickering - Whitby for example took some 3 hours, reaching Whitby 67 mins late (from RTT - I have 72 mins late ex Grosmont in my notes).

There's insufficient rolling stock. One Whitby set is just six coaches, with two brakes and the railway seems to be using more and more compartment coaches, which I think are unsuitable for the NYMR operation. So the overcrowding on some Whitbys is awful. The dining set 'ordinary' coaches are now part of a Whitby set, replaced by three teaks. If bashing, the Grosmont trains are better to catch, being less crowded but those tend to be covered by 37264.

One weak point in the timetable is the crossing of Whitbys at Grosmont. To Whitby on 2 and from Whitby on 3. With the diner parked on 4 you end up up the station gridlocked. If all working perfectly OK it isn't a problem but if a loco needs releasing etc, you have a problem unless one train is held outside to give a free road until whatever shunt move is complete.

Lack of customer care has been mentioned before. The volunteers at the sharp end are doing their best, but really don't have much idea about what is going on.

Ignoring all that and working around D7628/37264, the steam operaion remains superb. 60007 sounded magnificent and watching B1 to A4 loco changes at Grosmont brings a smile to the face. And their new cafe at Pickering does excellent coffee and food. I thought my relaxed bash is the way forward i.e. ignore the utterly wedged train and chill out in the cafe garden for an hour watching it all happen!

David

 

Lots of discussion about this on the NYMR Forum. If the impression you are getting is of more compartment stock you are wrong - over the years the NYMR has got rid of compartment stock and only has a few left, it's just that there are currently fewer TTOs available so although there's the same number of compartment as for the last few years they currently form a higher proportion of those available. The problem is that a number of coaches are OOU with wheel defects and cannot be repaired because the C&W crane, needed to dismantle the bogies is broken, and so are all the other suitable cranes! In fact, there's virtually a full trains worth of coaches awaiting repair, hence the shortage which will hopefully be addressed over the winter. The railway is also short of both steam and diesels able to run to Whitby, but 76079 should be back next year to make 4 and possibly 30926 as well. 34101 may make an appearance next year, but no-one is yet predicting a realistic completion date. The NYMR Management is said to be looking for another NR-registered diesel, it doesn't sound as though any of the home-based examples will be ready in time.

The overcrowding on some trains will surely have to be addressed and the sets may have to be made up to 8 coaches, which is about the limit for class 4/5s, so if staff can be found we may even see the reintroduction of banking of trains Grosmont-Goathland! The problem seems to be greater numbers of visitors, so perhaps we are heading for another record year and now, having fulfilled successfully the goal of more trains, and more people on them, to and from Whitby, we now have to upgrade the rest of the railway, and Pickering in particular, to deal with those increased numbers. One step has been taken with the addition of "Mulberries" - is it successful?

 

How many weeks ago did the 31 leave, after a couple of years largely sat idle?

 

May I correct a few inaccuracies in the above doom-laidened report.

The intensive and hence crucial part of the operation is the 12:45 departure from Whitby though to the 14:55 arrival back, when 4 single Whitby/Grosmont (or visa versa) journeys need to take place in that just over 2 hour period while the lunchtime Norther departure goes to Middlesbrough and back.

On the first day, although an observer on the NYMR might have thought that this didn't work, in fact the problem was that Northern had been delayed earlier (I believe by a cow on the line!), meaning they were late leaving ahead of the 12:45. In fact, the NYMR picked up some of resultant delay in the 4 train period.

Monday was more of less spot on despite a TPWS fault on 45428 meaning that 61264 did manage to bring a train out of Whitby and work the next one straight back in, and clear back out again on time.

D7628 did not do all the Whitby trains on Tuesday - it did only 2, which, unless there can be 3 Whitby steam locos available, would be done by a loco doing just those 2 trips between Grosmont and Whitby. The reason was the need to "bottom" an ejector problem on 61264, which was back the next day. There was a problem with 45428 which delayed the 12:00 ex Pickering at Grosmont, leading to a delay for the next train. To have sent in the 13:00 "in path" would have caused around a 25 minute delay to Northern, so it was agreed with Network Control for the Northern to go in first and the 13:00 follow it down during the Northern turn-around time, thus limiting the delay to about 10 minutes. This was far ideal for the inbound passengers, and a number were understandably unhappy with the length of journey that resulted. However, it did enable the train to complete its journey and be available for an on-time departure of the 16:40.

The reports on the NYMR Unofficial Forum from those working the trains are that they feel their is decent flexibility in the new timetable.

The shortage of locos and carriages is undoubtedly a major issue and one which does need addressing as best it can for the remainder of this peak season. The indications are for improved loco availability next year but that is still, of course, some time away! Unfortunately, the tightness of numbers this year has meant the need for some superb efforts to deal with faults and I am pleased to say that Grosmont MPD and the crews have steeped up to the mark and dealt with problems locos out in the minimum of time when needed on a number of occasions.

Steven

 

I'm sure that if anyone knows of a class 4-7 steam loco available for hire next year the NYMR would be interested!

 

To follow up on Bean Counters reply, the new T/T is actually easier to operate than the old one. There are some tight margins but there is recovery time available. The dovetailing between Northern & NYMR may be tight in places but the long layovers in Whitby mean that the critical trains can generally start their journey on time. I was working the second Whitby turn on the Monday and things ran pretty much to time overall, despite problems with 45428, 61264 & 60007. The small ejector failed on the B1 and we had to run the day on a water guzzling large ejector. 60007 also had a minor brake problem (what I don't know) which delayed it slightly. Then 45428 suffered a TPWS failure and had to be substituted by 61264 for the last train.
I think the Railway is well aware that it is running on a knife edge, both with locos and coaches. 76079 should have been available for this new service but the simple fact is that it isn't. Won't be long, though. We didn't plan for problems with D7628, either, which isn't helping, nor the failure of 63395 at the weekend. The lack of D7628 means that the class 37 is having to be used on a daily basis as the 10.00 from Pickering has to be a diesel. WE have to struggle through the next week until 31st August, after which the T/T eases and becomes more manageable with the resources available.
As an aside, the reason why the 10.00 has to be a diesel is quite convolute and has its origins in the times of Trans-Pennine Express trains from Manchester Airport! The original planned timetable required two trains to start their day at Pickering, with an NYMR train going to Whitby in the half hour that a Northern train layed over there. Then TPE revised the times of their trains from Manchester Airport to Middlesborough meaning that the platform space that Northern had traditionally used at Middlesborough was no longer available. Northern therefore altered the times of Middlesborough-Whitby trains, eliminating the long layover and preventing an NYMR train from utilising this path. To get the required departures from Whitby has meant an additional train starting from Pickering and that station doesn't really have the capacity to stable three trains. One set is stabled in the'long' siding, a second set in platform 1 and the last train of the day runs into platform 2. This traps the loco in the headshunt and thus has to be a diesel. The 09.30 departure (steam) from Pl.1 releases the diesel allowing it to run round and take out its train on the 10.00.

 

The class 31 wasn't fitted with GSM-R so could not be used to Whitby.