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2ft gauge Leek and Manifold steam locomotive proposal

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by lynbarn, Apr 25, 2013.

  1. lynbarn

    lynbarn New Member

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    Hi Guys,
    Just throwing this one out to see what you all think. I am wondering would there be much support for a 2ft gauge new build Leek and Manifold design loco?
    While it would look like the old L&M locos it would also benifit from current steam design thinking. A bit like the 'LYN' project on the L&BR, I would guess it will be around the £500,000 to build it, if it went ahead.

    At this stage I am just seeking if there would be any support for the proposal.
     
  2. guard_jamie

    guard_jamie New Member

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    I'd rathe rsee one in 2'6", despite the limitations that would impose on usefulness.
     
  3. Felix Holt

    Felix Holt Guest

    Would rather support Yeo, Exe, Taw builds after Lyn :)
     
  4. lynbarn

    lynbarn New Member

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    Hi Jamie I know what you mean, I have read the bit from the Welshpool guys and I do wonder if a 2ft gauge version would be any good for either the L&BR or the WHR considering that the L&BR has a ruling grade of 1 in 50 and the WHR has a ruling grade of 1 in 40
     
  5. glastonrail

    glastonrail New Member

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    An interesting proposal. What would the chances be of making this build - should it go ahead - adjustable in gauge using two sets of wheels (one for 2', one for 2' 6"), with the loco built to original proportions, or would this be impractical due to the overall size of a L&M machine?

    Just a thought

    Dom
     
  6. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    The L&M locos had an axle load of five tons. So did the Sierra Leone Hunslets and their close relative "Russell". (The boilers are differently proportioned although the heating surfaces are very similar and the frames differ.) S.L.R. 85 may be a (very) good'un but her performances up 1 in 30 have to be experienced to be believed. The limitation on performance is imposed by adhesive weight and as the S.L.R. machine weighs noticeably less than the L&MVLR duo it could be expected to deliver more drawbar horsepower. 1 in 40 or 1 in 50 hold no terrors.

    Do you want something because of how it looks or how it goes? With "Russell"/85 as a prototype you are likely to get both! If 2ft gauge is an important consideration wait and see how "Russell" goes after her overhaul. The Kitson L&MVLR design can only be speculated about.

    PH
     
  7. 61624

    61624 Well-Known Member

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    I would love to see one of these machines for real and as the W & L is the only sensible place it could run in 2'6" gauge I agree it would be more useful as a 2ft gauge engine. The next project for the L & B perhaps. Now that there is a replica MW running I think it is going to be much harder to raise the funds for a second from enthusiasts. They're far more like to support an L&M project, I suspect.
     
  8. Richieboy

    Richieboy New Member

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    Greetings all,

    I have to say I had personally wondered if a "convertable" 2' / 2'6" may be an option with other loco's too. With an outside framed loco, other than brake gear and being sure of the ride characteristics I guess it should work! The SA sisters of Monarch for example were built to 2' after all.

    As for an L&M loco, they are quite large in comparison to most things (save Garratts etc), and long. I wonder how much use one would be. It is something that usually starts a good "pub" debate when we talk about it over in Wales. The fact that 2-6-4 is not a great hill climbing wheel arrangement may be the biggest issue for heavily graded lines (weight being pushed back onto the back truck), along with the long (ish) boiler which makes going over the top of large gradient changes an issue too.

    We had a 2-6-2 that had a very high set, long boiler and it had modified gauge glasses to help, but it was still tight water wise.

    Don't get me wrong, they are stunning looking machines and I would love to see one, but there are many nominal 2' machines that could be built new perhaps.

    I would really love to see how one might perform, and I have no doubt it would be a big draw for enthusiasts - I guess the rest is speculation.

    A very interesting idea though.

    Best regards,

    Rich.
     
  9. manifold

    manifold New Member

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    Just remember there were some stiff grades on the Manifold line if only relatively short. The last mile into Waterhouses included 1in41, 1in50, 1in53 & 1in54 and E.R. Calthrop (the only Manifold engine to face both directions in service on the line) was always most satisfactory in service.
    I was for several years the regular driver of a 10.25" gauge replica of J. B, Earle and she was often used at local village fetes where the most level sites were at approx 1in20 and the engine always handled her loads (20-30 passengers) with ease.
    Please try and gain more support for this great idea for a project - of course it would be even better on a rebuilt L&MVLR.
     
  10. Rbridge100

    Rbridge100 New Member

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    Interesting. I'd love to see one at work on the Vale of Rheidol. To be 'useful', however, I concur with '61624' that it would probably be a project of, or at least based at, the L&BR since most of the other suitable railways are up to their eyeballs in locomotives.


    Jon
     
  11. paullad1984

    paullad1984 Member

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    I was turning this loco over in my mind the other day, id love to see a replica/newbuild, but for 2ft gauge as i think it would be more usefull!
     
  12. p/wayman

    p/wayman New Member

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    If you are going to build a replicaor newbuild its got to be a 2ft 6" gaugeas aL&MLR should be.
     
  13. Orion

    Orion New Member

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    Well I don't care much what the gauge would be, but there aren't that many 2'-6" gauge lines around and a fair few 2'-0" ones.

    Regards
     
  14. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    The L&M machines were a variation on the original Barsi 0-8-4T design. That might be a better proposition for really hard work should curvature permit. As said previously adhesion is the limit for Hunslet's S.L.R. design (a.k.a. the "gentleman's light sporting locomotive") and emphatically not the ability to boil water or to climb!

    I can't say whether the Kitson design is as good steamer as the Hunslet but a batch of the enlarged Barsi engines (a 4-8-4T) built for use on the last stretch of the Cypress Government Railway (a sort of elongated Golfa incline) proved deficient in evaporative ability. Come to think of it Hunslets built a 2-8-2T for Sierra Leone which was less successful still.

    As ever with engineering "Je ne sais quoi" is an important element and its presence or absence cannot be foretold. To spend 1/2 million pounds and end up with a turkey may not be likely but it is a possibility.
     
  15. Orion

    Orion New Member

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    Thank you for the history of the design. Re the potential steaming issues, can these be simulated in a computer?

    Regards
     
  16. lynbarn

    lynbarn New Member

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    Hi guys,

    I am aware that while they look nice I was not to sure of what they can do, hence the reason why I suggested that the project takes a good look at the steam circuit before it starts to get built, sure you could increase the boiler pressure, and have super heat plus all the stuff Porta would have had fitted, had he been given the chance.

    Getting the weight in the right place is also going to be important and that also will need to be looked at.

    The proposed new loco would need to be able to haul at least 7 L&BR sized coaches if it is going to be of any use. That said why not build a train set of L&M coaches to go with it?
     
  17. Neil_Scott

    Neil_Scott Member

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    I'm not sure how much the narrow gauge world needs another engine of this size, there seem to be plenty of them around.

    Wasn't your last plan to start a collection of 2 foot gauge engines to be hired out to railways across the country?
     
  18. lynbarn

    lynbarn New Member

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  19. houghtonga

    houghtonga New Member

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    I concur with Richie Boy, but will add that an example of the L&M 2-6-4Ts 'big brother' a 4-8-4T built for the Barsi Railway is preserved in India. The surving loco is No.11 (Kitson 4509/1907) "Lord Airdale" (but now carries the plates "Sir Alec") and is preserved in front of the Indian Railways headquarters (zonal Headquarters office of South Central Railway, called Rail Nilayam) at Secunderbad. (Lord Airdale was the Chairman of Kitson). It has been discussed elsewhere that another of the class may have been used by an industrial railway after being withdrawn by IR in the 70s - 80s.

    365 days of mine: Rail Nilayam
    Rail Nilayam Old Engine back view | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
    Rail Nilayam Old Engine front view | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
    IRFCA - The Indian Railways Fan Club Photo Gallery - Sir_Alec.jpg
    IRFCA - The Indian Railways Fan Club Photo Gallery - SirAlec_in_front_of_Rail_Nilayam.jpg
    IRFCA - The Indian Railways Fan Club Photo Gallery - Sir_Alec_Side.jpg
     
  20. Felix Holt

    Felix Holt Guest

    One hates to pour cold water on all those who think the L&BR would be prepared to promote a new build such as this, but I think you'd find that the great majority of L&BR members would only support new builds of the original L&B locos.
     

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