450 class DEMU disposal NIR

450 Class DEMU disposal: -

My Company South Bedfordshire Railway LTD 06947697 did register for the disposal tender with Northern Ireland Railways (Translink) at close of 2012 - and submitted a clarification concerning intentions for re-use during very early 2013.
On behalf of my company I have now received tender documents.
The original plan expressed by Translink at expressions of interest stage was for tenders to be invited ONLY for scrapping of the class 450 DEMU vehicles so the issue of a tender allowing for re-use seems a significent change of heart.
This stance is extremely welcome because it means that there is now the chance to preserve these vehicles - to save sample(s) of the class 450 DEMU from the scrap man.
The tender for disposal is for 15 vehicles - five sets - which out of 9 would represent a very high % of sets saved.

See
http://www.facebook.com/South.Bedfordshire.Railway
Yahoo! Groups and
Yahoo! Groups
http://www.facebook.com/groups/101535814486/
for further details.

Excellent pictures of disposal of 450 class DEMU 452 and 451 22/04/2012 29/04/2012 are available at
April 2012 - Irish Train Scenes' Photos | SmugMug
April 2012 - Irish Train Scenes' Photos | SmugMug
April 2012 - Irish Train Scenes' Photos | SmugMug
April 2012 - Irish Train Scenes' Photos | SmugMug
April 2012 - Irish Train Scenes' Photos | SmugMug

 

Yes there would be some issues.
To begin with the NIR track guage is different - 5 foot 3 inches as opposed to 4 foot 8 1/2 inches.
So UK spec B4 and B6 bogies would be need to be fitted or the wheelsets within the bogies would need to be changed (are dimensions of NIR 5'3" B4 bogie frames and axle boxes etc any different to the UK mainland dimensions?)
The portfolio refers to the units being fitted with 'straight' air braking - does this mean that the application of air pressure via control handle in cab etc applies the brakes, and release of the air pressure releases the brakes?
This could also be an issue.

 

How much money have you got to spend on them?

 

Thats a good question....

The funding for the SBR scheme is a funding submission to various awarding bodys (YES.... don't ask.... it IS a shame it hasn't *YET* attracted the sort of fiscal support such as Helston or Epping or Somerset and Dorset Railways have managed to get).

The idea is to list the costs and then to put in a submission.

Unless anyone has an idea to raise other means of support?

 

Oh boy! Having looked at the pictures you've linked to, and with no experience of NIR, why exactly are these worth preserving? And, if they are worth preserving, do you have the faintest chance of getting the money together to buy them, store them safely, and then convert them to 4'8 1/2"?

If you're relying on grants, what's the track record that you'll use as the basis to convince people you're worth investing in?

If your non-answers on other fora are anything to go by - nil. I'm out.

 

I'm afraid your asking too many questions that demonstrate to me sadly thay you do not have the expertise and skill levels to import, regauge, maintain and operate these units.

The NIR tender document I have here answers all the questions. The braking is a UTA / NIR derivation of the EP brake used on SR DEMU's and you will find the bogie frames (the power bogies are Mk6 sprung to support the 62 tonne power car weight) are wider to suit the wider track gauge / wheel spacing. The traction motors are EE 538A force ventilated ones (in case you had ideas of just lobbing random SR EMU motor bogies under the powered cars).


The tender document also mentioned the possibility of Asbestos, which should be right up your street. So much so that you are now permanently banned from one rail forum as a result of your posts on that subject. Can't be that much Asbestos in the 450's though as the first two sets to be cut had their vehicles cut in half with a mechanical grab at York Road and were loaded onto lorries for cutting (in the open air) off site.

 

i could comprehend preserving one unit in a NI location, but to buy 5 out of the 9 for preservation in England is so out there, it's a dot to me.... Transport costs alone will kill this project.

 

The Mk2 based 80 class DEMU's have all been scrapped and it seems quite likely the surviving 450 class DEMU's will all go the same way. Not even sure the RPSI at Whitehead (on the Larne line where the 450's latterly operated) have the will or means to take one on.

 

Thanks for the bogie information and traction motor information. Somebody had said about the bogie dimensions but not the motors and springs.

It is true that the number of vehicles is very high % with no splitting - the tender was originally advertised for scrapping ONLY with no possibility of re-use.

I will make enquirys about the asbestos - apparently it is in the electrical gear? (Contacts etc?)

The location on edge of Luton connurbation not that bad as surrounded by urban greenery from ex - industrial development now disused. The countryside surrounding the course of the old Leighton Buzzard to Dunstable line to West is very nice looking and offers some spectacular views.

Case for the 450s for any mainland UK preserved line is that -
are ready to run (once re-guaged etc),
they are of a type of bodyshell which has run many areas extensively,

they are unique in being a Mk 3 suburban design which can readily be used on a preserved railway (because they have 1950s design diesel engines and underframes) - whereas the class 150 Sprinter designs have modern mechanicals and electrics etc (which would be a liability when old).

Being of modern bodyshell design the 450s can be used for training -
rail trainees (on a modern Mk 3 bodyshell), and
members of emergency services (in evacuation from modern coaches etc).

 

Sorry to burst your bubble but I take it you have some idea of what it's going to cost you to move by road & Stena Line 15 x 67 foot coaches from York Road to wherever it is your going to store the vehicles?

If your going to regauge them your going to need 10 x Mk6 (EMU) bogie frames. I don't think you'll find there are that many of those knocking around. Nobody is going to scrap EMU's or 73's to provide you with bogie frames and I suspect getting the extant bogie frames rebuilt with narrower frames is going to beyond your capabilities.

I know people have been over to evaluate the 4SRKT engines for spares / repair and I'm told they are extremely worn and non standard to the UK versions, some of them being later versions built by GEC traction. The bodyshells were starting to look somewhat ragged when I rode on them in 2010. The Larne line runs along Belfast Lough and the Irish Sea for much of its length.

I'm still not clear why the South Bedfordshire Siding needs 5 x 450 DEMU sets.....

 

The Castle class (450s) are horrible, horrible things. They are noisy, drafty with uncomfortable seats and are not known for their reliability. They have the engines etc from the 70 class which were built in the mid-late 60s, and the engines are known to have problems. I assume that anyone who wants to preserve 5 of the things has never actually ridden in one. If you had you would be running far far away from that bidding document...

They were withdrawn at the same time as the remaining 80 class, when the new CAF 4000 class came into operation.

There has been some talk of preserving an 80 class

There has been absolutely NO talk of preserving a 450 class

Draw your own conclusions from that...

Keith

 

The 450 class DEMU engines were / are interchangeable with 80 class DEMU engines. Casual observation through the engine room windows suggests that most of the 450's were running around with engines from withdrawn 80 class units and not the ones they were originally fitted with. One of them was actually built using 80 class traction kit from an 80 class unit, the power car of which was destroyed in a rear end shunt.

Yes the seats were rather crap but there was something rather surreal about sitting in a 1980's BR interior with a 4SRKT blasting away at the other end of the coach. As far as noise / draughts went they certainly weren't any worse than 150/1's to be honest.

 

I thought the remaining four 80 class sets had actually been cut up at Ballemena?

Possibly I've been incorrectly informed, didnt do much on the railways when I was there last year.

 

I'd have to admit that of the two types the 80's were far more comfortable civilised units.

The 450's were however Northern Ireland's last blast at 'make do and mend', the body parts were new, the frames were 30+ year old BR Mk1 and the traction kit as built was 1960's ex class 70 DEMU. On the class 70's only the power cars were new build, the trailers were rebuilds on ex NCC coach underframes built in the late 1920's.

The 70's were the last trains built / rebuilt in Ulster too.

 

Maybe you could sell your share of 45015 to raise some finance?

 

Not a lot after he's developed his heritage centre at Dunstable. "Mr. Roberts" has a habit of resurfacing when he has another cunning plan to share with us all.