If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

4920 Dumbleton Hall

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by david1984, Apr 6, 2012.

  1. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    1,184
    Likes Received:
    1,145
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Librarian
    Location:
    Just up the road from 56E Sowerby Bridge
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Same with classic bikes and buses unfortunately. Had my Norton 650ss Cafe Racer stolen in 2015, and can't afford to build another up, let alone buy one now.
    Also, I saw last night a lovely AEC Regent III for sale on ebay for £25k... Beautiful machine, and a regular on the rally circuit for many years.... I sincerely hope it doesn't get into the wrong hands and become a burger bar or a mobile home. That would be a crying shame.... But there are plenty of folks with plenty of cash, and not a care in the world about heritage or history.

    Richard.
     
    Cartman likes this.
  2. goldfish

    goldfish Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2009
    Messages:
    12,569
    Likes Received:
    8,459
    It wouldn’t have been my first choice, I’d have gone for a Mini Cooper or one of the RS Escorts personally…

    ;)

    Simon
     
    Richard Roper, Sheff and 5944 like this.
  3. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2008
    Messages:
    6,413
    Likes Received:
    4,131
    Even more modern classics have gone through the roof - MG Metro Turbos are now £15-20k to buy in restored condition :eek:
     
  4. goldfish

    goldfish Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2009
    Messages:
    12,569
    Likes Received:
    8,459
    An AEC Regent III…

    [​IMG]
     
  5. richards

    richards Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2008
    Messages:
    4,518
    Likes Received:
    1,694
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Oh come up - get up to date, will you?. A pantograph on the tender would provide power. After all, most of the GWR is electrified these days. For the rest of the network, a few AA batteries (rechargeable) should do the trick.
     
  6. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2008
    Messages:
    6,413
    Likes Received:
    4,131
    I’m aware it’s a bus lol!!! I think that is what you are saying (although the image isn’t working)?

    My point was more you’ve picked two cars which fetch good money these days and rightly so, even those that are perhaps less deserving are also commanding premium prices. I wish I’d kept my Metro Turbo now, was my first car and iirc paid £300 for it, would of been a good nest egg!!!

    I did however have a result with my VW Transporter T4, such is the demand for camper conversions, I actually sold mine for twice the price I paid for it. I’d had it for 5 years at that point so was a result. Actually see it from time to time all done up now - the guy who owns it still thinks it was a good price he paid - certainly was for me!!!
     
    martin1656 and goldfish like this.
  7. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    3,527
    Likes Received:
    3,655
    Occupation:
    Once computers, now part time writer I suppose.
    Location:
    SE England
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    But don't forget they are a lot older and rarer than they were 20 years ago! You shouldn't compare the price of a 1962 Ford in 1982 with the price of a 1962 Ford now, you should compare it with the price of a 2002 Ford. The fly in the ointment of course is that the complexity of recent vehicles has escalated to the point that they must be pretty much unmaintainable by the amateur (and unaffordable to repair by the trade!).
     
    Cartman, LesterBrown and Jamessquared like this.
  8. meeee

    meeee Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Messages:
    754
    Likes Received:
    994
    You have to remember that if for example you are a multimillionaire asset manager that loathes giving money to the taxman. Then setting up a charitable trust to own and run lots of steam engines is a good way of avoiding having to do that. It looks very noble and above board. It doesn't attract much attention, and there are less restrictions than say giving your money to a political party. Of course we all think that is great because there's lots of puffer trains running about.

    Really that money belongs to all of us though and should be spent on things that benefit all of us. I'm not saying that is actually what happens with it of course. Just it is what should happen. As has been mentioned it also inflates the cost of everything for the rest of us tax paying mortals.

    Tim
     
    paullad1984, goldfish, black5 and 4 others like this.
  9. John Petley

    John Petley Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2007
    Messages:
    2,681
    Likes Received:
    1,879
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Researcher/writer and composer of classical music
    Location:
    Between LBSCR 221 and LBSCR 227
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Sorry, but that money doesn't belong to all of us. It belongs to the fund manager in question who is using his legal right to benefit others in the way he chooses rather than giving it to the taxman and letting the state decide where it goes. It's not that dissimilar to Gift Aid, albeit on a much bigger scale. Remember, it's not just a case of the charitable trust resulting in "lots of puffer trains running about". It creates employment and thus benefits others. That's how philanthropy used to work in the days before the big bloated state and high levels of taxation. Rich people would give their money to a hospital, to build a concert hall, to support a missionary in Africa or whatever. It wasn't just the rich. In Victorian England, charitable giving was much higher in terms of the proportion of their income people gave away compared with today. The main thing is that whether rich or poor, they chose what to do with their donations rather than giving it to the state via taxation. It was a much better system. much more targeted and much less wasteful.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2022
  10. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2007
    Messages:
    3,572
    Likes Received:
    4,423
    Well I for one could not disagree with you more about your rose tinted view of life for the majority in Victorian England.
    I'll say no more.

    Peter
     
  11. Cartman

    Cartman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    Messages:
    1,454
    Likes Received:
    1,040
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    99% of rich people simply grab as much as they can, poor people have to use their meagre income to put food on the table and keep the wolf from the door.

    tormormaig has got this 100% I don't know what planet the previous post came from
     
    Paul Grant and Bluenosejohn like this.
  12. The Dainton Banker

    The Dainton Banker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2014
    Messages:
    1,293
    Likes Received:
    2,186
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Over the hills and far away
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I'd agree with the first part of this but not your rosy view of Victorian charity. The problem with people donating as they choose is that it is very subjective. For example : the people in one town may benefit from a good school donated by local benefactor, whilst the equally deserving citizens of the next town miss out on a decent education because nobody has chosen to support them. This is the origin of the involvement of local and national government in area like Health and Education, an attempt to supply necessary services equally without being subject to the personal quirks and preferences of individuals. You only have to look at the effects of philanthropic giving in the USA to see how erratic it can be.
     
    goldfish, 35B, Monkey Magic and 6 others like this.
  13. eldomtom2

    eldomtom2 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2018
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    12
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Jersey
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    You seem to be attempting to imply that tax deducations for philanthropy is some sort of loophole rather than a clear and intended part of the law.
     
    35B likes this.
  14. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2007
    Messages:
    3,572
    Likes Received:
    4,423
    There are plenty of such legal loopholes in the law -that is part of the way that capitalism works. That does not make it any less distasteful to many who would like to see a more even distribution of wealth across our nation.

    Peter
     
    Yachtie likes this.
  15. goldfish

    goldfish Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2009
    Messages:
    12,569
    Likes Received:
    8,459
    I think @meeee is probably suggesting that there’s philanthropy and philanthropy. Running or supporting the running of luxury rail tours is hardly curing cancer or helping orphaned children or protecting wildlife now, is it…?

    Simon
     
  16. alexl102

    alexl102 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2019
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    52
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Leeds
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    My guess (and it is just that) is that given the existing relationship between Warner Bros and WCRC from working on the films (and 5972 being on loan to WB studio tour), WB have approached WC to ask them to source a suitable loco and cosmetically restore it as Hogwarts Castle.

    Assuming it is WCRC who bought it from Devon, they are savvy and wouldn't have invested that capital in buying the locomotive unless they were guaranteed a healthy return on it - so either WB have paid them significantly more to buy it from them, or it's being leased at a rate that's very advantageous to WCRC.

    I hope it's a lease, as presumably that would oblige WB to ship the locomotive home once they've finished with it. 5972 was very popular on railtours when it was active so possibly after its time in Japan is finished, either 4920 or 5972 will be restored to running condition with the other remaining in the WB Studio Tour?

    Again - the above is all guesswork.
     
    26D_M likes this.
  17. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    18,947
    Likes Received:
    15,182
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    And charity can be about more than those purposes. It can, for example, involve providing education on our industrial and engineering past.

    Meanwhile, I object to the neo-feudalism of @meeee's view that the taxes belong to us all. Setting aside the technical inaccuracy of the statement, the implications of that view are wide ranging and concerning.
     
    MuzTrem likes this.
  18. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2007
    Messages:
    3,572
    Likes Received:
    4,423
    What pray is neo-feudalism?

    It seems to me that taxes do belong to us all. They are paid disproportionally by the poor so that the rich can opt out of paying their share. Personally I'm all in favour of philantraphy provided it comes after paying ones fair dues rather than instead of such payment.

    Hang on a minute......How did we get here on a thread about 4920 being sold to Japan? Nat Pres eh?..........

    Peter
     
    Cartman and Matt37401 like this.
  19. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    18,947
    Likes Received:
    15,182
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Feudalism was a system in which all property belonged to the crown, and was shared down the social order in return for services. It could be removed at will. The idea that money belongs to all is a modern form of that, and is fundamentally different from the (entirely reasonable) idea that it is our duty to pay the taxes that are due, and wider political issue of how much tax we should each pay. In the context of this hobby, I would want to be rather cautious about undermining the idea that tax can be allocated to charities of our choosing, as to do so would undermine very much of what we value.
    ;)
     
  20. goldfish

    goldfish Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2009
    Messages:
    12,569
    Likes Received:
    8,459
    Sure. It can be. And it can also verge into rather less altruistic territory when the focus is almost exclusively on commercial operation, with little, if any, education. The difference between eg the PDSR and the SDR maybe… I suspect that it is rather easier to demonstrate the charitable purpose and public benefit of the latter compared to the former, just as it is for the NRM versus certain other heritage rail operations…

    Simon
     

Share This Page