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7027 Thornbury Castle

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by svrhunt, Jan 18, 2015.

  1. KHARDS

    KHARDS Well-Known Member

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    I was told by a well respected engineer in the preserved field, that the boxes have the same dimensions but due to the 8Fs lower planned pressure it has different stay spacings, thus the Country will have to have lower than designed boiler pressure.

    So although similar, not the same. And thus, the County won't be a County. More a cheap imitation.
     
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  2. KHARDS

    KHARDS Well-Known Member

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    You won't be seeing a 47xx though. You will be seeing a half baked bodge job.
     
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  3. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Several, well quite a few of us know this, it’s something we’re rather frustrated about. Do keep up my friend. :)
     
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  4. KHARDS

    KHARDS Well-Known Member

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    I am well aware of that. My comment was in reply to 'JohnB'. Do keep up my friend.
     
  5. KHARDS

    KHARDS Well-Known Member

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    Having read the last few pages I don't see how this makes sense. I realise the following is based on some very rough approximations and estimates.

    Assuming that 7027 cost around £300K to buy, and assuming the boiler needs a standard overhaul, say £150 - 250k. That suggests they will spend around £450 - 550k to end up with a second hand boiler that isn't actually correct.

    Based on figures elsewhere that the 82045 group and others have suggested, then it seems feasible that a new boiler could be made for approx £700k.

    So for an extra £150k you could get a brand new boiler which is 100% authentic.

    I know which I would choose.
     
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  6. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Resident of Nat Pres

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    More than happy to do. Please keep up My Friend.
     
  7. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    It's all a very sad situation, its yet another story of how a person's ego can if left unchecked ruin what they want you to believe they want to save for the future, the number of times i have heard that saying, " it's my way, or the highway, " often with very bad repercussions. for firstly the organisation, then the person, when they get ousted, because the organisation has to be bigger than anyone's ego, it happens with regularity, and I would not be surprised if it happens again at Didcot, over this rebuilds at all cost, to the detriment of other engines that have been gathering dust there since the site opened, It would appear that 7027 may have been sold to prevent anyone else restoring it in it's own right, out of spite against the GCR, Sold for spares, use the boiler, dump the rest out of sight, and at Didcot, it seems there is a similar, mind set, that would scrap a loco, that could be useful, at some point, to aid someone's pipe dream of an Night Owl, and their next impossible dream,
     
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  8. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    For all the talk about “belpaires are too complicated”, we have a brand new 3MT boiler in progress, a brand new Patriot boiler in progress, and brand new Clan boiler in the design stage - all belpaire and all attached to new build locomotives.

    Major surgery has been done on several large Bulleid boilers to rectify them, and the larger Stanier boilers have had large new sections in places, including parts of their belpaire fireboxes.

    There’s also the sight of a brand new PR T1 boiler on the other side of the pond which is about double the size of the largest locomotive boiler built here and unless I’m severely mistaken is also a belpaire.

    It’s a nonsense to suggest a new Belpaire boiler for the 47xx couldn’t have been built or that it’s too complicated.

    The choice of buying up the castle boiler is about financial choices and the speed of building a 47xx and has absolutely nothing to do with the perceived complexities of building a new belpaire design locomotive boiler, for which there is no significant barrier to doing so over and above funding it.

    That’s why this decision to sell and scrap Thornbury Castle, effectively, rankles so much. You’re taking a good boiler off a mostly complete locomotive and using it for something else that was never fitted with the type. Even the county boiler had similarities in terms of the design to the 8F, but this idea physically never occurred.

    I remain flabbergasted that we sit on a site called national preservation and talk all day long about railway preservation, and see people moan about the authenticity of a coat of paint on a steam locomotive and yet the exact same people are almost clamouring for a locomotive to be broken up for spares to make more locomotives that are largely by a very basic way of the “wrong design of boiler” inauthentic.

    That’s not railway preservation. I don’t know what it is, but it’s not railway preservation.
     
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  9. DavidH

    DavidH New Member

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    I went back and read through from the announcement of the sale and I can't remember seeing many (or anyone?) clamouring for 7027 to be broken up, on this forum. Did I miss a page?
     
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  10. DCSA

    DCSA New Member

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    It is, as you say, an assumption that they paid in the region of £300k. It would make more sense if they had paid significantly less than that for 7027.
     
  11. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Don’t be trite David; you can read back and observe the posts in black and white. Just because it’s a castle doesn’t mean it’s fair game or railway preservation to split it apart for spares.

    I cannot think of many examples like this - maybe the Sentinel that was broken up last year?
     
  12. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    There are indeed, but I mentioned the broad-gauge single in particular because some on here were lamenting its being out of service, despite their scathing comments about "Frankenstein" projects. Either it is a "good thing" as a working illustration of a GWR loco from a past era or it is a "Frankenstein" monster. You can't have it both ways.
     
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  13. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    The interest seems not to have been there for the last 50 years. This latest episode is causing a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth, but will it generate cash?
    How many on here can honestly say they are sorry to see a new Grange being assembled from a mixture of new and re-used parts?
    How many on here can honestly say they are sorry to see Lady of Legend in service pulling trains, and would have preferred Maindy Hall to continue to rust, or would have contributed to a fund to restore one more Hall?
    As for many GWS locos being out of service; as a museum of the GWR and successors, Didcot has no need for very many locos in working order. The rest, on display, serve a valid purpose, as will the various rebuilds, and can sometimes pull trains elsewhere, as Lady of Legend has already.
    Often in life there is no absolutely right answer but only a choice between various non-ideal outcomes.
     
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  14. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Looking through the accounts, and at Companies House, I notice some overlap between Great Western Society Limited (the main organisation) and Great Western Preservations Limited, and in particular that Richard Croucher is a director of the latter but not the former.

    I do wonder whether in amongst this there may be some confusion over which body is acting on what authority.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  15. evilswans

    evilswans Member

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    Well this has caused quite the stir hasn’t it. End of the day it’s had many many years to be overhauled and for various reasons it hasn’t. Personal opinion is they are making a night owl, do it right and make a boiler for it, don’t go making a cut and shut, either way it’s just another chapter in the saga of this castle, which looks as if it’ll never steam.
    Matt
     
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  16. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    How advanced is the Night Owl? is it already a rolling chassis, if so, then as long as the rest of the castle can be saved, and overhauled once the 47 is finished hire fees and steaming fees from the 47 can then be used to have a new boiler constructed for the 47, And once the fund has reached fruition, and a brand new correct boiler is ready, that can be dropped into the 47, in effect giving it a new ticket, in the process, then 7027 can be finished to give the fund another revenue earning stream by hiring it out plus a castle if it was decided to fit the mainline equipment would be far more gauge friendly than an outside cylindered 2-8-0 .
     
  17. mdewell

    mdewell Well-Known Member Friend

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    There you put your finger on it so to speak. GWS have been struggling for years to recruit volunteers to maintain and operate what they currently have. There are also volunteers who only want to work on their favourite project and have no interest in working on anything else. I expect this is true of many other railways too (but I'm not a member of most of those). So. . . where do you spend your very limited financial and labour resources? How do you persuade volunteers to work on the basic stuff rather than the high profile loco projects?
    PS. Total agree with other comments about reinstating the Broad Gauge as I would love to see it running again, but pretty sure the aged group of volunteers that worked the original project for the track and Firefly are no longer around. So. . . anyone on here want to volunteer?
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2022
  18. GWRman

    GWRman New Member

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    I think you are missing the point here. There isn't an issue with "Frankenstein" projects per se, providing a couple of factors are met:

    1. The parts used are appropriate for the engine. In this case, 7027's boiler isn't suitable without considerable alteration, alteration that without which the loco isn't a true representation of what is meant to be. The example you gave of the Broad Gauge recreations I believe to be poor comparison. Can we really compare a design from the mid 19th century and not expect to either drastically change the design or use similar parts that are of a more modern standard?

    2. The parts are from a scrap yard, not a loco that has had some restoration progress.
    This comment is also null and void. There has always been interest in this loco, a lot of interest in fact. However, the loco has always been in private ownership. There has never been a fundraiser for this loco (AKAIK), so how can we say that any future restoration attempt won't cause people to open their wallets? My wallet is certainly ready, but not a penny of it will be going towards any project associated with a certain individual.

    How many of these locos had been partly restored? They were all scrapyard condition.
     
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  19. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    From what has been said so far, my understanding is that the Castle boiler would not need to be altered much, if at all, but just to be lightly disguised to present the correct appearance. The situation is similar with many parts of Fire Fly, including its boiler and cylinders, except that the disguise there is much more extreme (for valid reasons).
    I take the point that Thornbury has had work done on some parts, but if all those parts will eventually be used for one project or another then none of that work will have been wasted.
     
  20. Matt78

    Matt78 Well-Known Member

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    One issue with some of the larger engines beivg constructed is that with the price/availability of coal and the mainline too expensive they may well get finished but could spend a lot of time on the demonstration line at Didcot while making occasional visits to other railways for galas. In the current climate would anyone want to hire the 47xx for the summer season?
     
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