If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

7027 Thornbury Castle

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by svrhunt, Jan 18, 2015.

  1. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    12,930
    Likes Received:
    13,939
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, best job I've ever had
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    That can happen if they were open JCs museum
     
  2. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    24,214
    Likes Received:
    49,692
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I’m sure the plan is long-mooted; I’d heard of it before and don’t follow closely. The issue, as has been pointed out by @Jimc and others, is that it is a poor plan even in purely technical terms - if you want to convert a Castle to a Star, a late model Castle isn’t a good place to start. As should be obvious to the GWS who ought to be the more aware than others of the actual constructional differences across GWR locos.

    Tom
     
    Gareth, MellishR, Steve and 14 others like this.
  3. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    19,650
    Likes Received:
    18,863
    Location:
    1016
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Restoration/rebuild projects always raise as many questions and differences of view as solutions.

    Someone has already observed that "as we already have an Atlantic" why build Beachy Head? And the decision to construct an original Merchant Navy Pacific (that'll look like Blackmore Vale with a different number) has also raised an eyebrow or two for some. And I have also observed that "another Castle" is questionable if something else that we do not yet have is possible.

    At the end of the day are there not just two factors?
    1. Whether the seller and purchaser are happy with the arrangement and no other parties have been disenfranchised..
    2. Whether the objective will be achieved quickly and sustain funding without it becoming another stalled project.

    I think the jury is out at present.
     
  4. Mr Valentine

    Mr Valentine Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2018
    Messages:
    224
    Likes Received:
    792
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Titfield
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I've said it before and I'll say it again; don't underestimate the naivety of those making major decisions. This whole thing of making sweeping statements to generate interest, and only considering the detail after the project launch has been the modus operandi for years.

    At the time of the County project launch, it hadn't been established whether or not the 8F's boiler would need alterations to the foundation ring, they didn't know whether they would keep it as a 3-row or change it to a 4-row, they didn't know if they could run it a 250 psi, and I reckon it was over a decade before anyone realised that the tube layout of an 8F was different to a County. I know these things aren't game stoppers, and you can't work out every nut and bolt before the launch, but you get the gist.

    As for Lady 'we'll just drop the boiler down in the frames' Legend...
     
  5. 1472

    1472 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2008
    Messages:
    1,809
    Likes Received:
    2,275
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    3. Whether or not an action turns supporters off the project and organisations connected with it. Of course it is possible to have large single benefactor support but that is not so helpful if it turns a lot of others right off the project.
     
  6. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    21,616
    Likes Received:
    17,643
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I think there's a practical difference between projects like the Atlantic or unrebuilding an MN, where change is to build or adapt surviving artefacts to a varying version of their own form, and the direction that the 4709 project is taking, which is to take something entirely different and use it to create an example of something else. That's not a question of property rights - what you say above is entirely factually correct - but of something deeper about preservation ethics.

    And, to be clear, I see no conceptual difference between 5942 becoming 2999, and 7027 being used for 4907 - both raise the same challenges of principle. There are, of course, a further set of questions about how these decisions are being taken and implemented that then go into the specific projects.
     
    Swan Age and 2392 like this.
  7. goldfish

    goldfish Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2009
    Messages:
    13,601
    Likes Received:
    10,126
    Strong whiff of this with some of these replicas…
    [​IMG]
     
    Gareth and Chris86 like this.
  8. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2007
    Messages:
    3,936
    Likes Received:
    5,248
    Am I right in thinking that the tender (or a significant part thereof ) in this picture has now been rebuilt to be paired with Beachy Head at Sheffield Park?

    Peter
     
    Matt37401 and Jamessquared like this.
  9. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    1,301
    Likes Received:
    1,344
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Librarian
    Location:
    Just up the road from 56E Sowerby Bridge
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    So, having read the latest Rail Advent piece, it will be interesting to see what comes of any talks between JJP & the 4709 Group... I do hope that he can re-acquire 7027 from them.
    No, he's not perfect by any means, but this is the future of the Locomotive we're talking about.
    Hopefully this isn't the end of 7027 as a Locomotive in its own right. If JJP buys it back, the 4709 lot then have their money for a new boiler.
    Fingers crossed.

    Richard.
     
  10. Diamond Gaz

    Diamond Gaz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2005
    Messages:
    1,622
    Likes Received:
    72
    Surely if JJP buys it though, the funds 4709 group get, will only replace those used by GWS / 4709 / Whoever actually paid for it, to buy 7027 in the first place? Plus perhaps a bit of profit if they decide to increase the price over what they bought it for? Can't imagine it would be enough to repay the money they paid for it, and have enough for a brand new boiler as well?
     
  11. Saint Austell

    Saint Austell New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2022
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    15
    Location:
    Cornwall
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I suppose this could be the start of improving his rep after the S&D 53808 issues.
    Hopefully a decent outcome happens for the Castle and 53808 now.

    The castle might be the start of a change in his attitude, now he can see things from both sides.
     
  12. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    16,703
    Likes Received:
    13,888
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Not looking good, he has just posted on FB, GCR washed their hands of it, nothing from those who sold it and GWS/4709 still cracking on with their plans.
     
  13. mdewell

    mdewell Well-Known Member Friend

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2005
    Messages:
    1,363
    Likes Received:
    1,968
    Occupation:
    UK & Ireland Heritage Railways Webmaster
    Location:
    Ruabon, Wrexham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Wasn't it GCR that started this ball rolling by asking the (previous) owner to remove his toys from their site? So he sold the loco.
    (Apologies to GCR if I have this wrong. Obviously they could not predict where the ball/loco was going to end up.)
     
  14. GWRman

    GWRman New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2010
    Messages:
    157
    Likes Received:
    223
    Where was this posted?

    Edit - found it
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2022
  15. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2015
    Messages:
    4,301
    Likes Received:
    3,384
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Swanage
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I must admit I have not really followed this saga with any great detail and I have only read the Rail Advent article (so the facts or not).
    But if the loco was sold to a private buyer by JJP, what is the input from the past or current acting GM's bearing on any of this?
    What am I missing other than the man trying to "avoid a PR disaster"?
     
  16. D1039

    D1039 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    May 25, 2007
    Messages:
    3,966
    Likes Received:
    2,880
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    North Somerset
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Aside from the resonance with the S&DT, there's also one with 4110. As I read JJ-P's first piece he was asking for a sale of 7027 to be held up while another bid was put together. As reported, 4110 was sold by the WSR (chair: JJ-P) while others were asking for the same thing. (From the above, that might have moved on now)
     
  17. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    1,301
    Likes Received:
    1,344
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Librarian
    Location:
    Just up the road from 56E Sowerby Bridge
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Oh dear, not good.

    Richard.
     
  18. Maunsell man

    Maunsell man Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2006
    Messages:
    1,585
    Likes Received:
    497
    Occupation:
    Senior Finance Auditor
    Location:
    Kent
    There was all the same blathering on about the 8F being scrapped because it was unique (to a rivet counter) but nobody stumped up the loot to buy it, let alone repair it. Got few feelings on how this saga for Thornbury Castle will ultimately end:

    1) the sale was not a 'one-off' commercial transaction. 7027 has been for whatever reason allowed to be lined up for the purpsose of donating its boiler. How did the 4709 lot lay their hands on xx hundred thousands to buy at short notice? Politics between various parties and noses being cut off to spite faces?

    2) like 48518 Thornbury is unique only to a few dedicated anoraks. At the end of the day its one of eight Castles. To most people there are eight Castles. That its got a left handed wotnot is irrelevant and was the pride of St Trianains shed unimportant

    3) the internet wibble, like with 48518 will ultimately end with a new build GWR ten wheeler gobbling its boiler up. Hot air, keyboard bashing wailing will not make one iota of difference. This is a deal done at a higher level than the plebs need to know about and is sealed and complete. Thornbury is no more, it has a destruction order on it. The Star thing is a distraction as ultimately those castle frames all nicely painted will end up as a 30' long flower pot in a corner of Oxfordshire

    Only question is will it be for sunflowers or tulips?
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2022
  19. GWRman

    GWRman New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2010
    Messages:
    157
    Likes Received:
    223
    Why not tell us what you really think?

    Jesus wept.

    Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk
     
  20. Maunsell man

    Maunsell man Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2006
    Messages:
    1,585
    Likes Received:
    497
    Occupation:
    Senior Finance Auditor
    Location:
    Kent
    I'm not the one crying over spilt milk. Still got seven of them to dribble over

    No need to blaspheme old chap, its not life or death!
     
    Greenway likes this.

Share This Page