9466 or 9600 on the Cambrian Coast?

Would it ever be possible to run a shuttle service with the 2 main line registered pannier tanks?

Just a thought!

 

Not after this year sadly, due to the ERTMS Trial on the Cambrian Line.

Regards,

Dan

 

"Not after this year sadly, due to the ERTMS Trial on the Cambrian Line."

This might sound silly, but what is ERTMS Equipment and why is this going to effect steam on the Cambrian?

:-k

 

We have discussed it before, possibly in the thread about last years Cambrian specials with 76079.

Basically ERTMS is a set of systems designed as a common signalling system for European railways. The idea being that rolling stock from any part of the EU can eventually run on another coutries lines.

There is a really good explanation of it here:

http://helix.imeche.org/http/2009/ertms.pdf

I would also recommend the Playback version of the lecture:

http://www.imeche.tv/player.asp?v=98

The main stumbling blocks would be the size of the kit involved, the need for it to be on the leading vehicle of the train (therefore the locomotive) and the problem of integrating ATP. Not to mention the current high cost of the equipment, installation design, installation and commissioning.

Regards,

Dan

 

ERTMS is a hell of an obsticle for steam to overcome, and many people don't believe it is possible...

 

I can just imagine some continental gauged stock passing the Friog rockfall shelters, and even opening out Barmouth Tunnel.
Thats assuming it can get north of St Pancras without coming a cropper.

In my own opinion, what a waste of time and money. #-o

 

That would be lovely. =P~

 

i can think of a line not far from me that would have been ideal for either of these engines, with a nice sharp 1 in 30 bank , if it hadnt been mothballed =P~

 

So it is a waste of time and money to provide full ATP across the whole of the UK rail network? Fulfilling a recommendation made as long ago as the Clapham accident inquiry. There is also the possibility of increasing the number of train paths on the network, reducing the cost of lineside signalling (as it will be displayed in the cab) and giving the future option (with Level 3 ERTMS) of having a standard ATO system.

As the rollout programme has been skewed to give best value for money through replacement of existing signalling systems when they become life expired, it is not such a waste of money as people think.

Regards,

Dan

 

ERTMS is potentially a significant cost saver(*), as it allows a reduction of costly lineside infrastructure and also increases line capacity. At the moment the on-train equipment is bulky, power hungry and expensive. But the fact that it is being adopted so widely around the world means that there will be a large competitive market with a strong incentive for cost reduction, miniaturisation and power reduction etc. So I am moderately optimistic that in the longer term it might be feasible to fit a steam loco, though it will certainly not be possible short term.

(*) Provided we dont mess up the Project Management.

David

 

But a pity they had to choose the Cambrian to try it out on where radio signalling is already in place & costly lineside infrastructure already removed. I wonder what the local traders & even the Welsh Assembly think about the post 2009 demise of the West Coast Steam operation which must attract extra £££££s to the local economy. What would be said in Scotland if ending of the Jacobite service was proposed?

 

Well, some of the heritage lines in the area will not be sorry to see it go, its dividing up the available customers in what is already a crowded market, and competing very aggressively on price without putting very much back into the local economy.

 

Good point 61624 which I have often wondered about. Although it is obviously dissapointing that the Cambrian steam specials are coming to an end this season it is being replaced for the 2010 season by a full length WHR!

Speaking of which how will the flat crossing integrate with ERTMS? Will WHR trains have to carry some fancy bits of kit in the future?

 

It should make the crossing much more practical, the ERTMS will be integrated with the WHR signal cabin there (not WHR trains), which will control signals and trap points either side, which will greatly increase the time windows for using the crossing.

Incidentally, ERTMS is being used to replace the ageing RETB - very sensibly, as it means very few trains need the new equipment and you can keep the trials more or less isolated from the less of the network. Lets just hope it takes them a while to get around to the West Highland..

Chris

 

How do they know this?

Quite a few folk known to me go to mid/north Wales specifically because of the standard gauge steam (and while they are there take in a bit of NG also).

I doubt that they will go if it does not run!

Why should they when compard to other parts of the UK this area suffers from poor climate, unwelcoming locals & rubbish food when eating out.

 

Who says 2009 will be the last year of Cambrian Steam.

I don't believe ERTMS will be anywhere near operational next year, and there equally needs to be - if necessary - a legal challenge to technical upgrades which can take effect as barring open access, which is a prime plank of the current railway set up.

When the technicians get ahead of the market there is something badly out of kilter

As to The Cambrian Coast Express competing with the toytown railways and not contributing to the local economy :-

Such a view is so damned naive as to condemn those who make it out of hand. I hadn't been to Mid Wales for almost twenty years until 2005, but standard gauge brought me back - and The VoR, TR, Fairbourne WHR, and FR were the consequent beneficiaries. Wake up and smell the coffee, or look beyond the ends of your noses.

The big let down was the Welsh tourist industry, what's left of it. Its complacent, poor value for money, has no customer service outlook, and is frankly forty years or so out of date.

It is just about possible to do the Cambrian in a day trip to avoid B&B or Welsh hotels, and there are darned good reasons for adopting that outlook.

Such a shame with world class scenery - but when I can get a three room plus double facilities suite for five in New York state including managers' reception and breakfasts for the same price as two lost in the 50s dog boxes in Barmouth, I know where I would prefer to be - and it ain't Wales.

 

I don't think we need to be too worried about ERTMS. some people threw their hands up in horror when TPWS and OTMR were instigated, but we adapted. We can do the same eventually for ERTMS. I am involved in the Certification of the GNSS aspects of ERTMS, and there is a long way to go. As long as we are willing to adapt when the time comes then we will be fine.

 

With an attitude like that I'm sure the Welsh Tourist Industry is pleased not to have you as a customer, as I am sure are all the various NG railways. Stay at home, or go to your beloved New York and let those of us who appreciate the scenery, ambiance and less frenetic lifestyle in Mid and North Wales enjoy it without the likes of you.