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Betton Grange

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Broomhalla, Feb 22, 2009.

  1. Neil_Scott

    Neil_Scott Part of the furniture

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    That's interesting. What could a Grange do that a Hall couldn't? Were the Granges a bit of unnecessary luxury?
     
  2. michaelh

    michaelh Part of the furniture

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    Granges - with their smaller wheels were better suited to freight in hilly areas such as Cornwall. They were also economical to build as they re-used the wheels and motion from withdrawn 43's.
     
  3. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I agree it's strange Grange production never resumed considering how highly rated they seemingly were, I suppose the sacrificial lamb 43XX's were suddenly needed again in wartime, but that doesn't stop you building 100% new Granges, the last 10 post war Manors were new afterall.
     
  4. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    i imagine the answer is that the Grange was the Enginemans Engine but the Hall was the Operators Engine....more versatile as they could deputise better for passenger locos such as Castles and yet were still a useful freight engine.Probably the same reason that no more 47xx were built.
     
  5. lil Bear

    lil Bear Part of the furniture

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    We used to, but now everything seems to follow the tagline "Building the 81st Grange". This is confusing for people not involved in the project though, as people will simply say why build the 81st when there are already 80? Not everyone knows all 80 have been scrapped, and those that do are not going to build this loco alone.

    "Re-creating the Engineman's Engine" would be something that stands out, and would make people ask both why we need to re-create one and what makes it the engineman's engine? Questions show interest, and could develop into more support. But as its been run like this since the start I doubt we will see things change without a major shake up. A lot of the voices though saying things should change are exactly that, voices. Very few people have stepped forward and offered to implement the changes they feel are necessary. At least those incharge are trying.
     
  6. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    I do wonder about the 10 all new Manors - 11 43s had been withdrawn in the previous year or so. I think its fairly well documented that when GWR standard locos were withdrawn useful parts were recycled. I wonder whether new locos used refurbished parts or all new ones.

    The modified Halls were Hawkesworth's baby I suppose, and they were also the only 2 cyl class without extensions frames. I've seen sources suggesting they weren't as good as the unmodified Halls, but with variations in valve size and so on I'm not sure all Halls were the same anyway.

    Also the financial rules that favoured the pseudo new engine projects like the Granges, smaller wheeled large prairies andDukedogs no longer applied post war.

    Cook, I think it is, states that more Castles were built instead of a further batch of 47s requested by the running side.
     
  7. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    All food for thought Jim, There's a few of the final batch of Manors still with us, did they have any parts stamped 43XX ? (though granted they could of been changed in service)

    Anyone with practical experience of Original & Modified Halls who has an opinion ?, I don't there's been a Mainline Modified since 6998 in the early 90's ?,
     
  8. 6880rules

    6880rules Member

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    The order for the 6800 class was placed on the 1st Jan 1936 under lot number 308

    The order was to build 100 engines this is stated on the drawing registers held at the NRM

    We all know that only 80 were built due to the outbreak of war and if you look at the registers various other batches of GWR locomotives were cancelled as well and Swindon turned its works into the war effort including building 8fs

    They also had a change of CME with Mr F Hawksworth who changed the American/Swindon/Churchward practice of mainframes bolted to extension frames with identical cylinder/saddle castings bolted together to the more commonplace mainframes straight through with cylinders bolted either side as on the modified halls

    So I assume with Hawksworth in charge he had no desire to continue outright with Colletts designs unless he could improve upon them here and there

    I would think another batch of manors appeared due to their ability to run over blue routes being a good replacement for ageing moguls and dukes dogs over the Cambrian

    Just my thoughts

    As for a which is best well " Harold Gasson gives us an insight and a few other ex GWR/WR man have in the past one day we may find out to some degree as I cant see this one making the mainline
     
  9. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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  10. NDTSDN

    NDTSDN Part of the furniture

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  11. lil Bear

    lil Bear Part of the furniture

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  12. Thompson1706

    Thompson1706 Well-Known Member

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    The projected steaming date of 2016 sounds a little optimistic. The promised boiler report has yet to materialise , yet this was supposed to be one of the items which was to be funded by the proceeds of S.S. & S. 3.
    I presume that when this is done it will not involve wasting funds on one of these so-called consultants, who seem to charge a lot of money to tell you what you already know.
    The boiler sits in Pentrefelin yard untouched , except for the removal of two rows of superheater elements a few years ago.
    The publication of a favourable report will surely encourage people to donate towards the cost & help bring forward the steaming date.

    Bob.
     
  13. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    Surely, for a proper and complete boiler inspection to take place, all tubes should be removed prior to said inspection.
     
  14. Just_Sayin

    Just_Sayin New Member

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    I have just been shown by a 6880 member the latest newsletter. No mention of the boiler or even the tender. But it has taken 3 years to NOT restore a bogie that for some reason is at Williton WSR, as it has been since 2010. And they have suddenly realised it's missing some parts like underkeeps etc!

    This must give us some idea of the time scale and the complete lack of project planning they are working too, based on that I would take their hoped for date of 2016 as a figure plucked out of the sky. There was nothing in the newsletter providing anything to back this date up except for a wish amongst a number of individuals. No Costing Plan, No Project Plan, no nothing. Just a "we would like".
     
  15. NDTSDN

    NDTSDN Part of the furniture

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    A photo showing 2 of the axle bearings which had just been removed during the bogie dismantling on 4th June 2010 (at Williton).

    I assume the keeps were removed many years previous.

    879.JPG
     
  16. NDTSDN

    NDTSDN Part of the furniture

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    An earlier photo on the same day.

    864.JPG
     
  17. lil Bear

    lil Bear Part of the furniture

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    Ahh but remember Bob members aren't given news first hand as such news is saved for Steam Rly / Heritage Rly exclusives such as the one above above, so a report may have been been done but we'll just have to wait for the next issue of all the various mags to be released to find out ourselves.

    I too believe the 2016 date is optimistic seeing as our income was £37k/annum at the last AGM, and as SSS3 failed to deliver the promised £60k profit it'll be interesting how this £350k has been devised as there was no mention of it in the recent newsletter. Another example of the mags getting more information than the members! I did notice a "Sponsor A Part Scheme" in the newsletter but as this includes parts for the bogie does this make up some of the £350k quote, for we were told the bogie was nearing completion at the last AGM?

    I have asked some question in an email to the Board, so shall wait & see what answers I get. Failing that there's always the AGM when they get round to arranging it. Certainly needs some clarification though.
     
  18. MarkinDurham

    MarkinDurham Well-Known Member

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    It's a little worrying, given that there are application forms to join the group appearing in the RM, to read some of the comments on here. Whilst I wish the project well, it's not something that I would put money to at present. It's all very well giving the likes of SR/HR 'exclusives', but surely regular accurate progress reports should be the norm? It doesn't project a good image, given that the group is actively seeking further support.

    Sorry to sound negative, but that's the way it looks to me.

    Mark
     
  19. Bacofoil

    Bacofoil New Member

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    Well I am a new member to this forum and am extremely disappointed and disheartened to read some of the drivel written!!!! Surely you cannot expect anyone to have a crystal ball and know exactly what the weather would be like for the SSS event? Or may be you do! If you do it shows your lack of understanding of how the world weather works.
    Being so negative gets you know where... Why not put your money where your negative comments are...
    This is one of many great projects and I think everyone should support groups who work tirelessly for free
     
  20. Thompson1706

    Thompson1706 Well-Known Member

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    I personally have several hundred pounds invested in this project , as do other so-called 'moaners' on this forum, and as such I am fully entitled to complain if I think that the project is mis-managed.

    Bob.
     

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