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Black 5 workings

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by 22A, Jan 7, 2009.

  1. 22A

    22A New Member

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    I read in one history of the Black 5s they could be seen over all the former LMS system "from Wick to Wessex and from Goole to the Gower". This set me thinking; were there any mainlines (not minor branch lines) on the LMS system where Black 5 workings were rare please?
     
  2. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

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    London, Tilbury & Southend.
     
  3. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Part of the furniture

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    Depends if Cricklewood Class 5s worked St Pancras - Tilbury Docks Boat Trains, MOD trains to MOD Shoeburyness and excursion trains off the Midland Lines to Southend.
     
  4. Impala

    Impala New Member

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    That would have been very unusual. Cricklewood and Willesden both had Crabs fitted with LT&S ATC allocated for that kind of traffic. And as far as I am aware they were always used when required.
     
  5. Neil_Scott

    Neil_Scott Member

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    Glasgow and South Western route?
     
  6. 23E

    23E New Member

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    ............
     
  7. Ploughman

    Ploughman Well-Known Member

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  8. Sheff

    Sheff Well-Known Member

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    Leek & Manifold? #-o

    Ooops - must read the question properly ](*,)
     
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  9. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

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    A couple of other contenders could be the Mold and Denbigh Junction line (not easily described as 'main' lines!) or what about the former Highland Railway mainline from Aviemore to Forres, via Dava summit?
     
  10. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Part of the furniture

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    Power of the Black 5s shows them using both lines north out of Aviemore on both the main line and what is now the Strathspey Railway.
     
  11. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

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    Fair enough - just a guess!
     
  12. Bob Meanley

    Bob Meanley New Member

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    It is on record that 4822, 4846, 4984 and 5267 received Hudd equipment in 1947 to permit them to operate over the LT&S section.
     
  13. Impala

    Impala New Member

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    It is on record that 4822, 4846, 4984 and 5267 received Hudd equipment in 1947 to permit them to operate over the LT&S section.[/quote:rz8jhjeo]

    Interesting. However, I don't think any of them were fitted in 1947. The earliest I can find reference to is 4984 in January 1948, the remaining three being fitted later that year. The next one being 4822 on 24/5/1948. 4984 went into Bow works on 17/1/1948 to be fitted with Hudd ATC, as far as I can tell. None of the engine history cards for those four engines mention the fitment of Hudd ATC at all, save for one works visit of 45267 on 30/3/1950 for ATC repair. However all four of them were evidently maintained by Bow on a regular basis until the early 1960's which would appear to support the exisitence of LT&S ATC on those particular engines. That is apart from heavy repairs, which were done at Crewe. They were all stationed at Kentish Town whilst fitted, apart from 44984 & 45267 from June 1956 when they were stationed at Bedford. Apparently still with Hudd ATC at least until 1960, before returning to Kentish town. Willesden used Crabs, not class fives for the LTS, which were similarly maintained by Bow for light repairs. 42812 actually had a heavy repair at Bow on one occasion, which must have been a unique event. Before anyone else mentions it, Willesden also often used Super D's for through trains on to the LT&S, including passenger trains. But I've no idea if any of them were also fitted with Hudd ATC.

    Anyway, the main point is that evidently that proves that there was nowhere on the LMS system that the black fives didn't reach on a regular basis. At least for lines where they were within the weight limit.
     
  14. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

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    Interesting indeed! Does anyone have any info on actual workings or indeed diagrams if they were regularly used (the original question asked about mainlines where Black 5's were 'rare' rather than unknown)
     
  15. 34007

    34007 New Member

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    Black 5's were a regular at Nine Elms.
     
  16. Rumpole

    Rumpole Member

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    That well known LMS depot...! 8-[
     
  17. 34007

    34007 New Member

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    Sorry, didnt realise it was about LMS depots only - I thought it was about Black 5's and their working in general!? ](*,)
     
  18. Maunsell907

    Maunsell907 Well-Known Member

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    in the late Fifties Kentish Town men worked the 09.25 am from St Pancras and the 11.46 am return from Southend and
    the 2.45 pm the ex St Pancras and 6.00pm return.
    ( Plaistow men had the 12.25pm and 3.42pm return )

    The RPS archive has two undated logs from this period between Southend and Barking on the 6.00pm ex
    Southend Central, locos were 4F 0-6-0 44029 and 5MT 4-6-0 45267.

    My introduction to the LT&S was, with grandparents, on through excursions from Watford in the late 1940s,
    three occasions I think, but always ( to me then boring ) 4Fs. The variety of locos seen around Bow is
    the enduring memory,

    I think the 4Fs maintained their preeminence on the excursions until the end of steam. There are two logs
    in the archive from 18/7/53 and 6/9/61 on the 5,20 (. 5.18 ) Southend departure with 44530 and 44243.

    In the 1930s 4Fs we’re regularly used. ( there is a DSMBarrie timed log with some spirited running )

    As an aside. Until 1899 the Midland supplied all motive power on the St Pancras trains, a regular performer
    ( there are logs from Frank Box ) was 4-4-0 No 1757 “Beatrice” one of the very few locos to have carried a
    name. Bearing in mind the LT&S predilection to name all its locos was this deliberate by
    the Midland ?

    Michael Rowe
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2021
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  19. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

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    Is a 12.5 year wait for a reply a record?
     
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  20. Enterprise

    Enterprise Part of the furniture

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    It was worth waiting for.
     
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