Cathedrals Express to Scotland

Friday 14th:
60019 London - York
60009 York - Perth
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U54805/2013/06/14/advanced
http://www.uksteam.info/tours/t13/t0614a.htm

Saturday 15th:
60163 Edinburgh - Stirling - Perth - Inverness & Return.

Monday 17th:
60009/60163 Edinburgh - York
60019 York - Edinburgh

No timings yet and a pity to lose 60007, but still looks a good trip for those travelling. Sadly though, it is very dry up in Scotland at the moment. We had a very light layer of rain last night, which has since dried out, but more worrying is that there was 2/3 lineside fires on the Bo'ness and Kinneil (30 mins outside Edinburgh) on Saturday. I suppose Tornado may well be the deciding factor on Tuesday over whether steam is allowed or not?

 

Why would 60163 be the deciding factor, are not both A1's and A4's fitted with Kylchap blastpipes ?.

 

I suspect that steam_mad is referring to Tuesday's "Elizabethan" run from the Cross to Waverley by 60163.

Mark

 

That is a shame, but presumably 60007 hasn't yet had mainline trials following the recent repairs. No matter; as long as there's a concerted effort not to put a diesel on the front (apart from the most dire of circumstances), I'm happy with whichever replacement they obtain. I'd be surprised if 60009 hauls the York leg on the return, as I would have thought it would go to Thornton Depot after arriving at Perth on Friday. Would it be possible to path it to Edinburgh at such short notice? Maybe, but I'm not pinning hopes on it, either. So its beginning to look as though 60163 might have a very busy weekend ahead of it...

 

Suspect these are the timings for Day 1 of the Cath-Ex to Scotland, as departure time was confirmed as 07:38 when I contacted them today: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U54805/2013/06/14/advanced

43 minute leg stretch at York and only a 27 minute stop scheduled at Tyne Yard makes for a good run as far as I'm concerned.

 

Timings on UK steam now.

After nearly 5 hours to York, (for various reasons), then that leg stretch mentioned above , 60009 will hopefully be able to stretch her legs with 37 minutes to passing Darlington, (44 miles). One of the really great steam loco racing stretches from the past, and a superb schedule for 2013 if I've read it correctly.

And some way inside even time to the stop at Tyne Yard.

Not sure what the load will be, but if heavy that is going to be a test for the A4, presumably starting cold from York.

 

Its down for 420 tonnes with no trailing diesel, so 10-11 carriages?

 

Of course, that assumes that Yotk can manage to do a loco change in 43 minutes so that we can get away on time in that path! Normal situation at York is that nothing relating to charters moves if there is a service train within several miles. Pessimistic? Possibly - but we've been there before!

 

Yes, I guess she needs to leave on time to make sure of that pathway. Have to say that with 420 tons of train and a 75 mph limit that looks to me a virtually impossible timing to passing Darlington. Possibly OK to the Tyne Yard stop though, but I haven't timed up there for decades, (in the Deltic era ), and can't remember the route after Darlington or the start out of York. Or know what they are like today. Where is Big Al when you need him? LOL!

Emulating the start Bill Hoole made in March 1956 with 60003 on just 8/330 tons gross and pass Pilmoor, (16.1 miles), just inside 16 minutes, (max 77), then a steady 75 mph will see Darlington passed in a little over 38 minutes. Close enough I would reckon!

 

I had to re-focus away from Bulleids to get my comments re 60009 on that schedule into reality Al! LOL!

I had been thinking of what Light Pacific 34087 did in the last days of her life. 12 for 430 tons out of a Basingstoke start, and even time inside of nine miles, (including a mile uphill at 1/386 and several level stretches), and then 90 mph on the level after Fleet.

Then after the Woking stop 69 - 70 at Byfleet before accelerating to over 74 on the climb up to Oatlands Box and even time reached inside 12 miles, despite that uphill section. Good stuff for a Light Pacific on 12 cars. Then caught a box back to Basingstoke and had what by the standards of the day was a mediocre run on the last up Weymouth. 34001 and an even time start to stop to Woking, 87 max. Followed by a fast run up from Woking with another max into the 80s. Followed the next day by 34021 accelerating a light load from 19mph at Winchester Junction to 80 over Roundwood summit. Then 98 between Basingstoke and Woking and a 73.2 mph start to stop average.

But these A4 s are pretty good you know. Shame about this damn 75 limit, especially between York and Darlington where I was brought up on the running that by then had sadly ended, but was still being published.

I guess Basingstoke to Woking was our SR equivalent of that Northern racing stretch. The easier grades down South, (with exceptions), being partly offset by the much shorter start to stop distance so far as start to stop running was concerned.

 

York to Darlington is very slightly uphill for the most part, and thus there was always a noticeable inferiority in speeds northbound compared with heading south with equivalent traction (diesel) and loads.

Maybe a better comparison for the gradient profile might be Paddington westwards towards Swindon?

For the trailing load that has been suggested above (420tons tare), a type 4 diesel in the eighties (25D or 27D in the WTT of the day) would have been allowed a few minutes more than this tour.

Likewise Newcastle (pass) to Berwick (stop) in 60 minutes would have been exceptional for a Type 4 on that load. Morpeth in 15 minutes ????? Even if some permanent speed restrictions for curves have been eased since those days north of Newcastle.

Would need full throttle and plenty of lever throughout, not to mention skill with the brake (which is often under rated).

Still, if the stoker is up to it.............

Think on!

 

Not so young man! My gradient book shows around 27 miles, (0ver 60%), from York to Darlington is level or a few grades downhill, with over 2.5 miles down at 1/391 or steeper approaching Croft being the best downhill stretch. With from York, circa 188 miles), to North of Alne at just before 200.5 miles all level with one slight downhill section. A good base for a fast start. And then continued fast running. The uphill grades are all gentle or very gentle. Which is why that stretch, both ways, was such a wonderful steam loco racing ground.

I'll check my distances again but I think I am very close, unless of course the Northerners up there have started to do a lot of Fracking!

 

Can anyone please suggest how I can get timings for day two to Inverness and also suggest if engine will be tender first up to Inverness or on the next leg to Aberdeen. Thank you from a new member.

 

I don't think the timings are yet available for this trip (I haven't received tickets yet, either). I should think it will be smokebox-front all the way, as the line is cleared for 60 over Druimuachdair and is single section with passing loops, whilst a 45mph limited steam special (the max speed for tender-first running) would have little hope of reaching Aviemore in a day, notwithstanding the added distraction of negotiating through service traffic. There is a triangle at Inverness where the locomotive can be turned to face the Aberdeen direction, as I don't believe there are turning facilities between Inverness and Thornton Junction, Fife. Out of interest, are you linesiding or on the train?

 

Thank you for your explanation. I will be linesiding. Live in Cairngorms and go to Slochd to watch.

 

Not so old boy! You have it the wrong way round!!

I stand by my original posting. For evidence I would adduce the Ian Allan gradient profile "E1". Further evidence comes from the difference in timings in the WTT in diesel days for northbound and southbound. Southbound being slightly faster by some 5% or so across the board for different traction/load combinations.

So I still say that the Cathex to Scotland loco has a harder task set for her than you give credit.

 

Better take a brolly, as showers are forecast. However, the positive side to this is that they will help reduce the risk of lineside fires.

 

Timings for Monday's return trip are up, although having emailed Cathedrals Express this morning on a related issue, they told me that they are not yet confirmed by Network Rail, and as such are still expecting a longer layover in York with arrival at KGX around 22:00.

http://www.uksteam.info/tours/t13/t0617a.htm

Also, there is remarkably little time for watering at the stops north of York, with the longest being 17 minutes at Tweedmouth and a 14 minute stop at Tyne Yard, so I'd treat these as a work in progress for the time being.