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"Correct" lining for maroon stock

Discussion in 'Heritage Rolling Stock' started by flying scotsman123, Sep 21, 2014.

  1. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I always assumed the way I do at at Winchcombe is the correct way, but I've started looking recently and it seems that it's not the only way. The way we do it is the black middle is the same width as the total waist (black+yellow) line on choc 'n' cream/blood 'n' Custard stock, with the yellow either side being about a quarter of an inch thick. Is this right? Other railways seem to have the yellow thicker - not sure whether that makes the black line thinner or the total line thicker - and/or the yellow actually more of a gold, as opposed to the "buttercup" yellow I think we use from Williamson's.

    Also some railways appear to use some sort of "tape" rather than "doing it properly" with a small paintbrush and a steady hand (or masking tape) Maybe those railways that feel they can't paint the line themselves are restricted by what's available?

    What are people's opinions on this, as to both what is correct and what is more aesthetically pleasing (not necessarily the same thing!) Obviously I'm in favour of the way we do it on the GWSR, I think it looks good, and even if it's wrong, is at least produced right, rather than just with tape.
     
  2. K14

    K14 Member

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    I don't know what lining spec you use for B&C, but if it's the same as in this document, then that'd give you 1/4" 'Gold' + 1-1/8" Black + 1/4" 'Gold', which to me would seem to be a bit unbalanced.

    I'm led to believe that there are two specs for lining; one Derby/Crewe & the other Swindon. The 'Midland' spec being 1/2" + 1" + 1/2", and the 'Western' spec being 3/8" + 3/4" + 3/8". I can't vouch for the Midland spec, but Swindon lining was always a multiple of 3/8" — presumably dictated by the size of lining brushes that they issued.

    As to the 'correct' colour for the yellowy bit... I've used two:

    http://www.handover.co.uk/Signwriti...at_Oil_Colour_-_Gold_Colour/product_info.html

    http://www.handover.co.uk/p42440/One_Shot_Signwriting_Enamel_1/2_pint_(US)_236ml_-_Imitation_Gold/product_info.html

    The first one is a paler, buff-ish shade that looks nice when varnished & is pretty close to historical examples I've unearthed, but perhaps a tad on the pale side. The latter is a much richer shade that, since it's a gloss, doesn't need varnishing; it's not quite right, but does look nice (it's also what I use for the face of Loco tank/tender lettering). When I had to do a load of lining on Dean Van 933 and Family Saloon 2511 for the 'Anna Karenina' shoot I concocted a mix of the two that, to my eye at least, is a closer match to original samples.

    I always view tape as a 'get out of jail' card to be used only when absolutely necessary. I was put off it when we did Railcar 22 & the lining was sprayed on using two-pack - we were going through lining tape by the boxful! Since then I've learned to do it the 'proper' way with a straight edge and a long brush; it's actually quicker as it eliminates the masking-up stage. Also, tape is useless on mouldings - there's something like 1200' of lining on the SRM & that has to be done freehand.

    One thing that tape does do is to eliminate the learning curve. Pinging a line, putting the tape on & filling in the gap are, at best, semi-skilled tasks that almost anybody ought to be able to cope with.

    To my mind, when it's just as easy to do it right as it is wrong, then you might as well go for right.

    Pete S,
    C&W Dept.,
    GWS Didcot.
     
  3. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Thanks Pete, interesting reading, I didn't realise there were two different measurements depending on region! The Midland spec seems rather thick, 2" is a lot. I suppose we use the Swindon one, in which case perhaps our black and yellow lining for choc 'n' cream coaches is wrong? This is giving me a headache now (although that might be partly due to having to think in bits of an inch!) When I said about tape I don't think you understood me. I do use masking tape to help me get a straight line - although I am getting better without it (for instance around window frames where it is difficult to get masking tape on sometimes) - but what I was talking about is using tape for the actual line, as in some sort of sticky transfer or something with gold/black/gold printed on it and stuck on. it's this that seems particularly different, with it being distinctly a dull gold rather than yellow or buff and the whole thing being much thicker.

    Anyway, thanks again :)
     
  4. al4466

    al4466 New Member

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    There's a good guide on the lmsca website about lining and colours
     
  5. 45669

    45669 Part of the furniture

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    On behalf of those of us that couldn't draw a straight line with a ruler, may I offer our gratitude to those that can - and do. Smart carriages are just as important to the visitors at heritage railways as smart locomotives. More so in some ways as it's the carriages they ride in!
     
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  6. guard_jamie

    guard_jamie Part of the furniture

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    Little plug for my home line, but to my knowledge the SVR C&W Dept. rigorously apply authentic livery to the railway's copious collection of carriages. For example, unlike many railways, you will never find an SVR carriage marked up as SVR - if its in BR livery it will have BR crests, etc. Consequently having a look at the SVR's BR Mk1 rake may help - alternatively why not get in touch with them? I'm sure they'll be keen to share the knowledge.
     
  7. nick813

    nick813 Well-Known Member Loco Owner

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  8. Ploughman

    Ploughman Part of the furniture

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    Is there any info on Wagon lettering and lining?
    Especially PW Vehicles.
     
  9. K14

    K14 Member

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    For the 1948 spec I'd suggest grabbing a copy of Brian Haresnape's "Railway Liveries—BR Steam 1948-1968" Ian Allan ISBN: 0-7110-1856-1 as it has a number of dimensioned drawings in the back.

    What it doesn't go into is the style of lettering. For that, have a hunt around Paul Bartlett's superb site: http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/paulbartlettsrailwaywagons

    Also... Never scrap an old paint job. Odds are that, if there's a substantial amount of existing paint, the original livery is down there somewhere. I've had good results 'excavating' details using various grades of wet & dry and lots of elbow grease:

    Here's a shot of Toad 17447 that shows the result:
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/svr_enthusiast/12699962365/

    The white 'GW' is buried under grey, Gulf Red, Departmental Olive and Bauxite, & sits on top of two coats of GW freight grey (which is *very* dark) and two coats of red primer. I still have more to do on this as there's a full 'XP' panel lurking down there along with the number.
    Once exposed, the details can then be photographed (macro setting) & traced.- I used to use a Rotring drafting pen on acetate film (the acetate is clear so doesn't obstruct details like tracing paper will), but these days I use a vector drawing program (Adobe Illustrator) and trace off the photo. The digital method also extends itself to scanned 'factory' photos which can contain a staggering amount of detail; this was the technique I used on Saloon 9002 and Fruit 47886 as none of the lettering details were on record as far as I know.

    http://www.didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/wagons/47886/47886pic_01.html

    P.
     
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  10. Ploughman

    Ploughman Part of the furniture

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    Thanks for that reply.
    We do use Paul Bartlett's site for research as a lot of people seem to do.
     
  11. pmh_74

    pmh_74 Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely. During the initial splurge of restoration activity on B462772 I not only found the original lettering (it reads "RETURN TO DONNINGTON L.M.R.") (http://www.palbrick.com/462772/2009_03/772r3685.jpg) but also the actual build date (4/11/59). Sadly most of my other vehicles have suffered from well-meaning previous restorations or a complete lack of surviving paint so I doubt I'll get that lucky on any others.

    I like the idea of using acetate film by the way. I did find tracing paper to be a bit awkward.
     
  12. daveannjon

    daveannjon Well-Known Member

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    From photographic evidence, ex-LMS or BR built LMS design stock in maroon often seems to have wider (should that be taller?) lining than the equivalent Mk1s.

    Dave
     
  13. The Crimson Pirate

    The Crimson Pirate Member

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    In a MK1 maintenance document I have it makes reference to "Painting Schedule BR2".
    Has anyone seen or have a copy of that document.?
     
  14. K14

    K14 Member

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    I have a copy that dates from the early to mid eighties:— https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8453031/BR Docs/BR 2 - Passenger Stock.pdf

    These might be of interest too:—

    BR 3 (Freight Stock 1975): https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8453031/BR Docs/BR 3 - Freight Stock.PDF
    Part B (Methods & Inspection Procedures): https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8453031/BR Docs/Part B.pdf
    Spec 81 (Paints etc.): https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8453031/BR Docs/Spec 81.PDF

    Which Mk1 document do you have?

    Pete.
     
  15. The Crimson Pirate

    The Crimson Pirate Member

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    Hello Pete,

    Many thanks for those.
    I'm looking to collect all the associated documentation that goes with CRM1/A/1, which I have.
    So I'm looking for a number of WOSS, CEPS and EI docs as well as MT101.
    Welding Spec 528 I have.

    Kind Regards
    Huw
     

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