Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Sidmouth, Feb 7, 2017.
Have you tried looking in the scrap bin?
Agree with your sentiment, but in the case of 6201 it surely can't be a 'behind closed doors' operation ultimately as the loco is subject to the rules of a subscription based organisation? Sooner or later PELS will have to announce to irs membership what has been agreed, if anything?
They certainly ought to, but the individuals running some other societies in recent times have been seriously economical with the truth.
There's no need, it's wrapped up in newspaper in a cardboard box in the spare bedroom.
Having caught up with this thread there does seem to be a bit of a contradiction re the loco only carrying LMS livery.
If I've understood recent postings correctly it is out respect to the original saviours of the loco that it is kept in LMS red, fair enough but a contradiction seems to me to occur using that argument because following the same train of thought the original saviours did not want it operational..................
So it is ok to go against the saviours wishes to have it operational but not ok to go against their wishes for it to carrying any livery other than LMS maroon.........?
Whatever the reasons for the move & whatever the colour of the paint I just hope recent events result in an operable engine for us all to enjoy.
Something I would raise as part of the livery debate:
Currently we have a locomotive that is currently not in operation as struggling for money. The former point is based on the latter, a vicious circle perhaps, and meant that the overhaul was not conducted as thoroughly as might have hoped.
In various different repaint appeals, photographers have paid upfront to repaint a locomotive into a certain livery (The most regular has been BR versions), and in return it's then resulted in said locomotive finding increase in photo charter activities and gala appearances (Small Prairie No. 4566, D49 No. 62712 'Morayshire' etc...). This has resulted in those locomotives finding an increased income of money on comparison to had the repaint not been conducted.
Please let's not tar the livery debate as meaningless, as it can often bring positives to an engine. Bob Meanley has highlighted a case above when it did come out negatively in the long run, something of which I would hope the scene has moved on far enough to ensure a repeat issue doesn't happen. But if you're a society, Trust or Company looking to make a bit of money for a locomotive, surely it should be considered an option if approached on comparison to not making money at all?
I have no knowledge of the loco's preservation history (I have never even seen it, so would love to see it come back). But the comment from @bob.meanley that the original purchasers had sought advice from leading railwaymen does suggest that they were at least considering making it operational.
Surely they would be overjoyed to see it back on the mainline, albeit with the proviso that it is in their chosen livery?
I can sense the pot of black paint being prepared as we speak in the Carnforth Shed......
The bottom line is that the only people who have the right to decide how it appears are those who put the money and the graft in, either back when it was first saved or now and the current cusdodians shouldn't be restricted by the wishes of a previous generation who could never have predicted how the steam scene would develop. Jonathan is right times have moved on and a change of appearance mid boiler certificate is quite common. The A1 Trust had the right idea by showing it in all three liveries that the A1s carried
In my view money is becoming increasing difficult to raise & more of it is required per loco maintenance/restoration.
If repainting a loco for a short term period reinvents it & attracts new/more investment then why not? It can be clearly stated to all those concerned that it is for x amount of time & only a temporary measure.
Those that don't like the principal are entitled to their opinion, but if it creates a new income stream then surely they can bite their lip for a while, for the greater good of the loco?
I would be surprised if Roger Bell is in favour of the naff blingy crowns that have been added to the nameplates. I personally think that commercially red is a better bet, but I am still puzzling over the unknown society whose constitution binds the board.
You are right on point one and it is now becoming almost impossible for a small owning group to fund overhauls every 10 years for main line certification. Clan Line with all its Belmond work was not fully funded for its overhaul and Bahamas got lottery funding. The situation is moving towards the big chequebook type of operation, i.e. Hosking and West Coast. The way forward is probably the sort of funding the A1 Trust does by regular covenenting, a lot of small regular donations rather than run for the full ten years and then start an appeal while the loco sits around in a shed for years.
Is it really intrinsically more difficult to fund one overhaul every ten years when you own one locomotive, or one overhaul every year when you own ten locomotives? As you say continuous fund raising is probably the key. Start fund raising for the next set of boiler tubes as soon as you install the last set...
I think you are misunderstanding what Bob said - the aims of the Society have always included the loco wearing LMS Crimson, but do not include it being kept in operational order - nor do they say that it shouldn't or mustn't be operational. Bob commented that they had been advised not too, but nowhere did he say that therefore their aim was to preserve the loco in static condition. Operating it is not against their wishes (it seems the aims are silent on the issue), but they, presumably due to concerns as to whether keeping it operational would be possible/viable, did not declare that it must be operational!
That is my reading of what has been said by one who knows.
I am rather inclined to feel; that photographers overestimate the value of charter income in the overall scheme of things. The fees paid for photo charters are split with the host site/railway, and those willing to pay for such events are a somewhat limited market, so the number of charters generated will also be limited and hence the loco owner's share not vast. Then there is covering the cost of two repaints to come out before any real benefit is seen.
Commercially, the greater question is does the livery affect overall income. I suspect the real answer is 'not much' - the way the mainline market has gone, a steam loco is a steam loco, as is shown by the number of trains sold out without much clear idea as to which steam loco will be pulling it. To any extent that livery does attract customer, dare I suggest being one of a very few Crimson locos will be more attractive to many passengers than just 'another Green' loco.
Photographers and some railway journalists may consider the BR livery they remember as being the 'acceptable' rust proofing, but I suspect most people appreciate variety or don't even really notice!
Agreed. I was suggesting that the original purchasers would probably not have had problems with the loco being made operational, not that presenting a loco in different liveries isn't a good idea. It clearly is in my opinion.
Of course you have to ensure that every bit of money you raise from the membership, from general appeals gets ring fenced to do exactly what is the aim of the appeal, ie to have sufficient funds to be put towards the next overhaul and not to be spent on " Society overheads " or on other things by the board, We have seen in recent history what happens when you have a Company, or Society where the membership is taken for granted and ignored, by self serving officials and every society ,or Company has to ensure its elected officers are made to understand, they work for the membership, not their own self interests, recently there has been questions put to charities over how funds are used and the behavior of executives , no society , or company is immune from such things.
A few sweeping statements there that I can't agree with but for me its all about the bottom line. Having done all of the above if there is a net profit with a resultant rise in profile then that's got to be for the greater good in my opinion, irrespective of some perceived negatives along the way.
Maybe that is viewed by some as being a little cynical but the truth is income generation is a key factor in maintaining an operational loco. I'm not suggesting dropping or dumbing down anyone's principals, just recognising todays harsh reality of the world of costly loco operation.
I corresponded with the original guys when the engine was at Ashchurch and asked the very question of the prospect of mainline running, their response was along the lines of 'they were by no means against the idea'. Also I believe they operated the engine whilst at Ashchurch, when still in BR green.
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