Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by aron33, Aug 15, 2017.
Same as 4 years ago-frames cut but no money to do anything else
At the current rate of fundraising if they continue to raise over 10k, let's actually say £20k per year and it costs a total of £5,000,000 like they have estimated then it will take 250 years not taking account of increasing costs. So let's hope that none of their members who are paying for this build die in the next 250 years
Speaking of the Doncaster P2 group. I saw them at the York Model Railway Exhibition Easter Sunday 2017 as they had a stand there. Didn't seem to be doing much...... I had a few words with one of their Guys and mentioned Prince of Wales. The response being......."at least we're making a proper P2......." As has been suggested above they'll take forever at the rate of fundraising at present. Mark Allatt & Co will have produced a whole range of missing L.N.E.R. types from A to Z including "Hush, Hush" and the Gresley/Beyer Peacock Garrett!
Edit: Both versions of Hush Hush i.e as built with the watertube boiler and rebuilt form with a conventional boiler and A4 style streamlining.
I saw them at the same venue at Easter this year and, whilst I personally find the profile of the "Doncaster" P2 locomotive rather more pleasing to my eye, the chances of ever seeing one are basically zero. There seemed to be no progress since you spoke to them a year earlier. This contrasts not just with the A1 Group's progress, but with the progress being made by many of the current new-builds.
I might be wrong, but I have a feeling that it`s begin to be some envy and fighting amongst some of the new-build groups?
Maybe, though there is also a lot of co-operation between groups as well.
What is true though in life is that just as you get individuals / teams / groups / companies / etc. that are truly exceptional, and others that aren't, and all points in between, then maybe it shouldn't be a surprise if across the field of new build groups, you get a similar variation.
The Darlington A1/P2 group have demonstrated that they are exceptional at fundraising (amongst other things), but it would go against all human experience to expect that level of performance to be the norm for all new build groups, rather than the exception. Far more likely that you will get a range of capabilities, which - in fundraising at least - probably translates into a range of completion timescales. Sadly for their proponents, the reality of that is almost certainly that some projects will either (a) never see the light of day or (b) will get finished, but only with a fundamental transformation of performance of the team driving them.
Which the Steam Beano article did point out, in polite but fairly direct terms. For those thinking of supporting a project, worth considering the financial viability and track record of those proposing it before sinking hard cash into something that will likely never see the light of day.
I recall Allatt saying the other Saturday that you are never going to raise the money to build a locomotive selling pencils.
So, 2268 completion date for the Doncaster P2 then (by which time I can imagine steam being banned along with all other forms of combustion!)
Maybe Simon should offer them scrap price for the frames and start a group to build the Thompson rebuild
With what little basic knowledge of the new-build groups I have (and I'm a member of 3) I would say that you were not really correct in that feeling.
Did the Doncaster P2 project start as a result of the A1 Trusts relocation to Darlington?
What exactly are the Man Utd B17 group aiming to achieve? A full size non working replica?
That seems to be the plan.
..."at least we`re making a proper P2" ...
Hmm, it doesn`t seems like the A1 Trust will recieve any Christmas card from the Doncaster group...
The implication being, that the Doncaster Group weren't going to update/refine the design for present day conditions. Sticking as near as possible to the original Gresley design warts and all. You just have to look at the modifications made to the replicas of the likes of Locomotion, Rocket, Puffing Billy and Co in order to bring them up to modern standards whilst keeping the "look" of the original.
Don't tempt me!
I do think there is some engineering merit in that idea, however. The conversion of the P2 frames into A2/2 frames is actually not all that difficult, particularly given welding technology has come on significantly in the last twenty years. Tornado and Prince of Wales' major components all share DNA with the A2/2. We have all the patterns for the wheels and the R&D for the front bogie (mostly same as on Tornado). The tender is identical to 2007's. Boiler could be easily made standard as it's based on that fitted to no.2006. We have the same buffer types on the P2 as needed for A2/2. List goes on...
Whether or not there is actually support for a new build Thompson Pacific (of any type) is the real issue. I think Mark Allatt could sell sand to the Arabs, but I remain doubtful whether he could sell the idea of a Thompson Pacific. I love them and would want one - but do we genuinely need one, and is there enough support for one? I don't think so.
Besides which, the DP2LT are unlikely to sell their frames to make a Thompson Pacific.
But I personally think this would be the one missing link that would look fantastic. A full line up of the three designer's main pacific types would be something to behold.
Agree with you S.A.C. Martin, I would prefer this one
I have heard that quote before from Mark Allatt. And while he is right in one respect you can also argue that there are two ways to skin a cat.
For me I would say you would never build a locomotive selling pencils but from my point of view we (LMS patriot project) would NEVER have got as far as we have without it. For us it's the shop window to the whole project. We have signed up hundreds of members and donors on the stand, been able to keep them up to date on progress (many don't read NAT pres, Facebook or even the website) and get a chance to ask direct questions. The sales of merchandise only makes between £10-15k profit per year (still over 10 years that's £150,000 less to find) but the amount of people who wear our products to events all around the UK helps keep our profile high. It's been a way of being able to create relationships with railways direct, meet and network with other groups and so much more. And IF you have a group of willing volunteers who will help then let them get on with it.
I would say that there are 3 styles of projects out there at the moment.
1. Fundraising and being a cheque book society (LMS Patriot project- Holden F5 for example)
2. Both fundraising and having a pool of volunteers who are able to work directly on the locomotive (82045 & 6880 for example)
3. Led by engineering and dont have the willing volunteers who are able to do the fundraising.
For me the second way is the best, and should see the quickest progress if you have the volunteers to give their time regularly. It reduces the overall spend but keeps a healthy income.
The first way is the next best way as your team can focus their attention to the best ways of getting money through the door, however it is risky as if you don't have people who have ideas to raise money you are a dead duck, and you are always at the will of the engineering company you are using. Are you their priority? Probably not and if you don't chase up the work they might not care as much as you and delays happen.
The third way is in my opinion the worst and will probably end up with a pile of metal that will never turn a wheel in anger.
I have met MANY people from the different groups over the years and I have to say they are all a pleasant bunch. Some you can tell within 5 minutes that they are going to struggle to finish their project and others really make you think and hopefully you'll walk away with new ideas on how to improve your project in some way. I think that new builds tend to get bunched together in a way that restoration projects don't. There are some fantastic groups out there that have managed to keep their locos in steam ticket after ticket, and some that still haven't restored their loco from Barry. But they don't get classed as "one". Any project is always limited by it's members and volunteers and it's those who will make or break a project.
I personally am a bit of a marmite person, some people hate me for being outspoken and saying the truth as I see it. Others like the fact that I try to help people by giving them ideas and try to help if I can, but I often get asked if I fancy a day out here or there but I'll most likely decline as I would prefer to be out raising money. I wish to see my dreams (and believe me I have many!) And going for nice days out all the time would mean that they would never happen and they would remain just dreams. Granted there can be a happy medium where you do a bit of both but all talk on the internet is a massive waste of time. I wish every SINGLE new build success and have no gripe with any (apart from being frustrated by their lack of progress) and would never be jealous of a project doing better than one if was involved in. In fact I would relish it as an opportunity to find another way of increasing income.
The reason for the A1SLT building 2007 in its current form were that (a) building a rebuild would be 'too easy and not offer a challenge' (David Elliott's words IIRC!) and (b) the risk of it being mistaken for an A4 with its Bugatti-inspired nose. After all, people did say "oh, I didn't know Flying Scotsman was here today" when they saw 60163 in BR Green!
With 2007 being built in the original form of the P2, it immediately becomes unique and unmistakeable. I just wish they'd call it Duke Of Rothesay!
In original Prussian blue? I’m in.
Supposed to run reasonably well..
You are spot on. As there's only a very few people alive who ever saw the original shape P2, but we've all seen the photos, and read the lament about this lost locomotive type-it evokes similar feelings to the Lynton and Barnstaple. People will put their hands in their pockets to recover this lost beauty.
The Bugatti P2 wasn't the best looking P2. It always looked like the A4's not so pretty sister, you know, the one who plays rugby and has a great personality, whereas the original shape is a stunner in its own right and not “a bit like” anything else.
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