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Current and Proposed New-Builds

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by aron33, Aug 15, 2017.

  1. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Well-Known Member

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    The Fowler Tank would be a good choice too, as they had the same long-travel gear which was adopted for the Royal Scots, and also they had generous axlebox journals... Very fast and free-running machines.
    Hopefully no-one will suggest a 3P Breadvan 2-6-2T - Either Fowler or Stanier!

    Richard.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2022
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  2. ady

    ady Well-Known Member

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    What depress me is that it looks like we reach the end of the golden ago of new builds now. I beginning to think if I wanted to see my personal favourite, a Brighton K class, it should been started 20 years ago...
     
  3. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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    Someone's gotta win it.... :)
     
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  4. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Excepting carbon capture tech producing bespoke solid fuels, I fear you're right. Unless that happens, I suspect we'll have enough to worry about keeping existing locos in service.
     
  5. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Resident of Nat Pres

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    You mean people looking through the Hornby or Bachmann catalogue and thinking ‘Mmm, that’s nice, let’s make a Facebook page about building one of those, without any fundraising strategy or any mechanical knowledge’

    If you feel that strongly about it a K Class why haven’t you done something about it?
    It’s alright saying something should have been done, if you feel that strongly about it, what have you done to make it happen?
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2022
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  6. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    In common with certain other 'Brighton' classes, my understanding is that drawings for the K class are missing. I do wonder on the whereabouts of the copies taken by Lawson Billinton to assist his retirement project of a 9in gauge edition. Will a family member have LBB's archive? If the Brighton Circle haven't run such a descendant down, you have to fear the worst.

    Without original drawings from which to work, what could be produced? A 12"/ft scale live steam model? We're talking about LBSCR locos here .... not some Swindon Meccano kit! :Pompus:
     
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  7. ady

    ady Well-Known Member

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    I am not an engineer or had any experience in fund raising so I doubt I could led or developed a plan that could been taken seriously by you or anyone else. The only railway experience I have was 7 years as a Ticket Inspector at Swanage which I was forced to stop in 2014. And I was working full time in retail since then to do much else. I changed jobs recently which is less stressful but still full time. And I don't have that much money.

    The impression got before 2019, was that it been expected for the last couple decades the Beachy Head guys would be doing a K next. In a Steam Railway Magazine in 2018 it was reported that a K was one of two popular choices the group were looking at after Beachy (the other being Cravens machine) so I don't think I'm totaly unjustified at the time. I do feel if a K Class new build had been launched a while ago, it wouldn't surprise me if people went 'hang on your high horses wait for them to finish Beachy Head first.'

    I did strongly believe in the K that I was preparing to put some my limited money in to that at the expense of other projects, so that's why I didn't put money in to the Swanage Moguls Fund for example (although what limited money I could afforded I doubt that would got 31874 running any quicker). I do realise that a K had not been officially confirmed but then they excatly didn't discourage people from the idea K be next did they? And if responses from someone here and else where is to believed it looks like I'm the only one who seriously wanted a K and in the last few years I'm not sure I'm that serious about them myself anymore as why back a dead horse which wasn't subject to any serious attempt to save back in 1962. If anything I gone more over the Brighton E1s as at least we will definitely see one of those running again.

    Happy with that answer?
     
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  8. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    One more thought about the Fowler 2-6-4T; RPSI are having a boiler built which was to have been a spare for their Jeep and is now to be used on an NCC Mogul. Isn't that boiler the same as on the Fowler tank, or very similar? If so, another boiler to the same design would be a bit cheaper than an unrelated design.

    However I can't disagree that new builds are all WIBN and should not divert resources from maintaining and overhauling the existing locomotive stock.

    Edit: Many of the other parts needed for a Fowler 2-6-4T would also be the same as those being made (sooner or later) for the NCC Mogul.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2022
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  9. mdewell

    mdewell Well-Known Member Friend

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    Tell that to the GWS. ;):)
    (Although I must admit I do support most of their new build/recreation projects)
     
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  10. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Resident of Nat Pres

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    deleted
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2022
  11. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Seriously mate, I have hobbies and passions but I do quite like having a roof over my head and a decent meal every day, I’d never want to give those 2 things up just to red pen something.
    You’ve said before before about how certain things affect you, My advice as it ever is to just take a deep breath and think before you post. (It’s something I should do every now and then :))
     
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  12. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    The Jeep is indeed a close relative of the Fowler SG design, but being Ireland, of course it's more complicated than that. The genesis of the design started with the Fowler 2-6-4T, although the first fruit on the NCC was the W Class 'mogul', constructed during Stanier's reign (1933-42, total 15 locos, extinct May 1965) and credited to H.P. Stewart.

    The WT "Jeep" is a development of the earlier NCC tender loco, first constructed during the Ivatt regime and a design credited to him (1946-50, total 18 locos). Class WT have the sad distinction of being the very last locos in commercial mainline service (April 1971) in these islands.

    Both NCC Classes seem, in their respective turns, to have benefitted from the original concept not catching Anderson's eye. Result: two very free steaming designs which regularly hit 80mph in service.

    Following the demise of the tender locos, it looked as if the Jeeps would need to operate the Belfast-Dublin 'Enterprise' (the last remnant of the GNRI had been divided between the CIÉ and UTA on their respective sides of the border back in 1958). Unsurprisingly, water capacity was an issue and to get around this, an odd lashup was tried using a surplus Fowler tender. For various reasons, the experiment failed. Evidently, they could've used the bloke who sorted 4472's watercart for Alan Pegler!

    *edited to include Class W construction date range
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2022
  13. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Some years ago, the team currently building Beachy Head noted that for a new build to be viable, it had to meet three criteria: be buildable, fundable and useful. "Buildable" encompasses things like whether drawings are available, and whether there are particular complexities in the design. "Fundable" is self-evident, though bear in mind two notionally similar designs might cost different amounts if one happens to be very complex and one quite simple. "Useful" should be seen in the context of the line that wants it: the "Steam Elephant" is clearly a useful engine in the context of Beamish; a Fowler 2-6-4T would be useful to most larger heritage railways (but probably only fundable if associated with one on former LMS territory).

    The K class was widely discussed within the Atlantic group membership (and allowing for the fact that that group is technically a group wholly within the Bluebell Railway, so any decision had to match the aspirations of the BRPS long-term plan, and be ratified by the BRPS, plc and Trust). That debate for a long time was between a Craven era 2-4-0, and the K class. Broadly, the Craven 2-4-0 would be simpler to make, but more of a niche design for funding and operationally less useful to the railway. The K class would be operationally very useful (it could broadly pull any train we wanted), but in design terms was borderline not buildable, at least not in any realistic timescale; in particular, the frame layout is very complex. The lack of any components, and the need for a new superheated boiler, pushed the cost up significantly and the timescale to a point where the existing team would be getting into their late eighties or early nineties before it would be finished; as such that makes it a very risky project of just ending up part completed.

    Because of those considerations, thoughts turned to the SE&CR E class. That would be useful. It would also be much more buildable, and fundable; in part because a significant number of components were available (including a tender, and many small components like the reverser); in part because SE&CR designs are inherently simple in construction, and with a conventional boiler, the build time and build cost would be much lower. That made it much lower risk. (Within the Atlantic Group, they could probably spend about £150k per year; and funding keeps pace. So at today's prices, the E class might have been a 10 year, £1.5m project; but the K class would have been closer to 20 year, £3m project, and at that point the age of the main protagonists comes into play).

    Had Covid not happened, and all the associated economic shocks of the last few years, it is likely that Beachy Head would now be in traffic and the E class would have started. However, Covid has knocked another two - three years out of things; everyone is three years older, and the railway's main concern is operational locos now, not later. So the E class has lapsed as a project, and the team are looking at taking on an existing overhaul, within the confines of Atlantic House. That way, the railway will get one of its existing fleet in four years or so, rather than a new loco in 10 years +. That is a lower risk profile both for the railway and means the group can take it on in a realistic timescale before they are too old.

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2022
  14. ady

    ady Well-Known Member

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    yeah I get that, that was what said back in 2019, but do you not think they should have said they didn't want to do a K class years/decades ago before 2019, therefore not allowing speculation? That was one of the most crushing things I ever had with this flaming hobby.

    Also why another express engine was selected when all the new builds are bloody express engines. I said before some people seem to only think express engines matter in preservation, that felt like it reinforced it.
     
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  15. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Are you a member of the Atlantic Group? There were various articles debating "the next project" in Atlantic News, and I think the K class was still very much in play until fairly recently - certainly "decades ago" it was still in play, subject to the normal governance arrangements. I wrote an article myself in favour of the Craven loco, but that was in the context of a decision that was still wide open at the time.
    Again, the logic of that choice was set out in Atlantic News, but it was strongly influenced by availability of a considerable number of components for an SECR tender engine (notably - a tender!) at which point your choices are really a C class (which exists); a D class (which exists) or an E class (which doesn't). The only other logical SE&CR choice would have been a J class 0-6-4T, but that is likely not fundable (too similar to an H class, and not especially well remembered, being a small class); had a superheated boiler (which the Atlantic Group are not keen on, for sound reasons); and wouldn't have used the existing tender components. Three driving axles plus a bogie is probably more expensive than two plus a bogie; and the superheated boiler is certainly more expensive than a saturated one.

    In other words, you have to look at all the factors. A J class 0-6-4T may have cost more than an E class 4-4-0 while being less popular in funding terms - remember, buildable, useful, fundable. It wasn't just a choice borne of being a "bloody express engine".

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2022
  16. ady

    ady Well-Known Member

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    Well no, cause I'm not a fan of express engines so why would I put my money in to one? Everyone outside were in the dark.

    Thank you for coming out with some logic.

    Why other people came out with the answers 'oh because the K class engines were crap' is my next question. Some on FB tried to argue that 'a K shouldn't be built as it came from the same company that built awful engines like the I1s and B2s' and I was like what?
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2022
  17. ady

    ady Well-Known Member

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    Also I know the current situation has all likely hood knackered pretty most chances of new builds succeeding anymore but I 'love' the way people are assuming the only the current generation are the only ones who can do new builds. Not a vote of confidence that younger engineers can possible succeed as well...
     
  18. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Ah well, here's a nice definitely-not-an-express-passenger-engine to get behind. No idea where this one has got to, but the group is a credible one, and the feasibility study is interesting in its own right. It's one I'd support if it got off the ground (but time is maybe running out to make splash from a funding point of view ...)

    https://www.sdr1825.org.uk/the-royal-george/

    Tom
     
  19. ady

    ady Well-Known Member

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    I must admit that does look something interesting. I am no expect of early railways but even I heard of that one. But yeah I think it might be struggle getting ready for 2025...
     
  20. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Well it certainly kyboshes any superheating argument. Air or vacuum braked?
     

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