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Current and Proposed New-Builds

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by aron33, Aug 15, 2017.

  1. hyboy

    hyboy New Member

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    Thats what l mean about odd double standards. The equally magnificent Bluebell Atlantic will look like a Marsh Atlantic but isnt. A GNR boiler and fabricated cylinders to take two examples!
     
  2. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    You are joking right? The GNR drawings were literally used for the LBSCR variant and the boiler is (dimensionally) virtually identical.

    There is no way on earth the County’s new boiler can be compared to the Atlantic boiler. One is an original boiler from the steam age that has had an overhaul and is close to identical to the genuine development that happened with the original designers blessing, the other has been built up from a range of parts to make a boiler design that never existed.

    Cannot believe we are having this debate.
     
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  3. hyboy

    hyboy New Member

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    I seem to be at odds with the purists amongst us. Put simply both recreations will look identical to the originals to all intents and purposes. They are being recreated by dedicated teams. They both incorporate compromises and divergences to make them achievable. Can we not all celebrate that ?
     
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  4. 5944

    5944 Resident of Nat Pres

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    A GNR boiler which is virtually identical to the original, and cylinders which are of roughly the same dimensions as the originals. Neither of which can be said about the County. The County is a mishmash of inappropriate parts being cobbled together.
     
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  5. Cartman

    Cartman Well-Known Member

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    My only gripe is that 48518 was cannibalised for it, and 8Fs are one of my favourite locos
     
  6. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Even given the work now possible to restore boilers to a certifiable working condition, ultimately, a boiler ..... any boiler is a 'consumable'. In case you're labouring under the illusion the team has just slapped a GNR boiler on a Marsh chassis, may I suggest a glance back a few years to the work done to convert the boiler to the Brighton spec. As Simon points out, both variants grew out of the original drawings, thus 32424 really is no mere 'looky likey'.
     
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  7. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    As I understand it (subject to correction) not much of the 8F boiler is actually being used, so a completely new one would have cost very little more. Besides being brand new and therefore likely to last longer before needing major repairs, a new boiler would have been able to operate at 250 psi (or even if desired 280 psi). With that they would have had a pretty accurate reproduction of a real Hawksworth County, whereas what they are actually building will be significantly different. I therefore have little enthusiasm for that project.

    On the other hand I am happy that Lady of Legend exists, because that is a pretty accurate reproduction of the first (apart from prototypes) of a long series of GWR locos. I am also happy that a Grange will exist before too much longer, because a 5'8" 4-6-0 with a No.1 boiler was a logical member of the original Churchward family even though it didn't emerge until later.

    The Churchward Counties were a bit of an anomaly. If the GWR really needed a few new 4-4-0s, they were probably significantly cheaper to build than the double-framed 4-4-0s, but the outside cylinders were a mixed blessing, and Swindon continued to build plenty of other classes with inside cylinders. Other gaps in preservation seem more worthy of being filled.
     
  8. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    The difference is the extent of the compromises and divergences, pretty minimal for the Atlantic, significant for the County. Also the fact that a more authentic County could have been built at not much extra cost.
     
  9. Cartman

    Cartman Well-Known Member

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    Some good points in the last two posts. On the County 4-4-0, I think it's probably a goer due to the fact that existing parts are available, if they weren't, it probably wouldn't have got off the ground. They were built for the Hereford to Shrewsbury line, which was LNWR, but the GWR had running powers, but 4-6-0s weren't allowed by the North Western, apparently

    Still like it though, and the progress this group has made impresses me
     
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  10. hyboy

    hyboy New Member

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    I would be very interested in knowing the extra cost. My impression from other projects is that building a large 'one off' new boiler is a very expensive and time consuming business. I am sure its the reason the 47xx project has jumped at the chance of getting a very similar No. 8 boiler . Also the reason that the Gresley P2 team are going to replicate their Peppercorn derived boiler for it which is too short and at higher pressure. Some people on this splendid site clearly feel that many projects are not ''doing it properly'' . This appears to mean doing things expensively and slowly with someone elses money!
     
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  11. hyboy

    hyboy New Member

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    Forgive me if l am wrong but l thought they had identical cylinder dimensions?
     
  12. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Yes, building a boiler is expensive, and building one using a few existing parts must be a bit cheaper. I don't know how much they are saving, but I suspect less than they originally expected when they decided to use the 8F boiler.
     
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  13. bristolian

    bristolian Member

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    The only part of the 8F 'boiler' being used in the County project is the firebox. The same design of flanging blocks were used for both fireboxes.
     
  14. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    A few further points:
    • The original Gresley P2 boiler (of which there were three variants, so we have to be specific as it is 2006's design with the larger grate that has been used) was used as the basis for the Thompson and Peppercorn boilers that came later. Tornado's 118A boiler has been developed from that boiler and is dimensionally identical in all but the tubeplate, which is shorter than the original P2 at the smokebox end but not by a huge amount (1 foot I think off the top of my head).
    • This small difference is hidden by boiler cladding and the smoke deflectors on the P2 and creates no visual change for the A1.
    • Since these are brand new boilers on a new A1 and new P2, the choice of standardising the boilers has allowed for boiler swaps in future, thus ensuring at least one engine remains in traffic
    • The higher boiler pressure and enlarged grate, together with cylinder changes on the P2 to adjust for the higher pressure, make the overall new machine more thermally efficient, which is an improvement on the originals.
    • Since they are building from scratch, it makes sense to incorporate these changes towards more efficient running
    The big issue with the county boiler was taking a serviceable Stanier 8F boiler, taking the firebox and chucking away the rest (which I still feel is wrong, given the LNER origins of this particular 8F), the big issue with the Night Owl is that it isn't the right boiler type, which is being split from what was an active and progressing restoration.

    The P2 Trust have managed to fund two new boilers and an overhaul in less than a decade. That suggests with the correct team, support and funding in place that new boilers are not some unachievable goal that is being claimed.

    Furthermore - there are several new standard gauge boilers that have been manufactured in preservation now, including one for the Patriot, one for 3MT, the G5 and several more in progress elsewhere.

    The biggest objection to the 47xx and the Night Owl projects is using serviceable boilers split from existing locomotives. One was a Barry wreck and not under overhaul, but had unique historic status (only surviving LNER built Stanier 8F left) and the other is a Castle boiler from an otherwise mostly complete locomotive.

    No beating about the bush - new builds using entirely new material is not the same as whatever it is that the Night Owl project is doing and the County project has done.
     
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  15. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    I think that you really need to define which new-build County you are talking about!
     
  16. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    The previous poster inferred it was the Hawksworth variant. I responded with that in mind. That is also the oldest and best known of the "county" projects.
     
  17. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    In fairness, could these points not be also made about fitting the Castle boiler to the 47XX?
     
  18. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    No: because the whole point of my post was highlighting that there is a big difference between building a brand new boiler which dimensionally and in design is not that far removed from the originals, with mods to improve, compared to modifying an existing boiler, split from a serviceable and restorable locomotive.
     
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  19. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Well-Known Member

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    So it does. but I am of the mind that if a project is going to "Recreate a lost member of X class of locomotive", then that is what it should do, otherwise I would not be handing over my hard-earned cash for it. I am a member of the Patriot Project - And yes, it is costing a lot of money - But at the end of it, we will have a faithful replica of the original, with necessary minor mods to make it comply with current operational practices and procedures.
    If it were to be built using a collection of random bits which "looked similar", and the ethos was that "it doesn't matter, the finished loco looks vaguely similar, we'll pass it off as a faithful replica even though it's nothing of the sort", then it most definitely would not be gaining my financial support.

    Think about it logically - If you were to launch a new-build replica project, costing potentially hundreds of thousands, or millions of pounds, and relying on public donations, I think you'd find that those donors would want exactly what you were advocating - A replica - not a half-baked creation that was a replica of nothing that ever ran in service.
    The P2 is not being built as a replica - It is being built as the next member of the class, incorporating logical developments and improvements which have been found necessary over the last 80 years. Nowhere in the P2 Locomotive Company's published material does it state that it is a replica.

    I have no problem at all with your enthusiasm for the County, and wanting to contribute to it - But do not be under the illusion that you will be helping to recreate an authentic Hawksworth County - For that it is not.

    Richard.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2022
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  20. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

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    The A1 Steam Locomotive Trust do not build a faithful, slavish copy of a vanished locomotive type. Locomotive designs were improved in the light of experience and the development of improved ideas and technical understanding.

    The A1 was built many years after the completion of Works No. 2056 in the December of 1949 and included features which were not available half a century and more previously. It was built with the 21st century in mind and was not looking back to imitate the mid 20th century. Time has indeed moved on and so has the impact of legislation.

    The P2 is the next in the class and includes changes to the design of 2006 Wolf of Badenoch, the last of the 1936 production to be built and these six engines displayed a range of differences . The original boiler produced for the P2 class was the first design built with a grate area of 50 sq ft produced by the LNER. This was Diagram No 106 and this provided the basis for all subsequent boilers of this grate area produced by the company and the boiler produced for the A1 was the latest version of an evolving development of the 106 and some further revisions have taken place since the original boiler was produced for Tornado. These will be included in the two boilers being constructed in Meiningen.

    Boilers are not cheap and this fact should be appreciated before anyone even dreams about producing a new build. I suspect that those who want to build a complete new locomotive from scratch have a different mindset to those who desire to fill in the gaps in their list of favourites by taking advantage of cannibalising surviving "excess" examples of types on that list. If you are incapable of understanding the cost and time implications involved in taking on a new build then perhaps you should not be doing it. Looking desperately for a cost and time saving shortcut in order to hope to achieve completion is not going to win you many friends.

    Some new build groups desire to run on the national network and have taken steps to adjust and modify their projects accordingly. They are trying to stay faithful to the spirit of the original but have been content to understand the need to swallow a "reality pill". They are building for the present and not for the past. They may pay homage but they have no desire to produce an expensive and enormous paperweight.
     

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