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Distinguishing GWR 4-6-0s

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Jimc, Mar 16, 2015.

  1. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    As it seems some folk have problems, here's my guide to telling GWR 4-6-0s apart...


    1) Frame Type
    1.1 Outside/Double Frames, inside cylinders.
    Long, low construction, low set boiler with raised round top Firebox, large dome, outside frames on front bogie. Has the appearance of an elongated Duke Class 4-4-0 but with smaller driving wheels
    36
    High set boiler, Belpaire firebox with slab sides, inside frames on front bogie. Large sandbox on the boiler. Unredeemedly ugly.
    2600 (‘Kruger’)
    (There were also 2-6-0 versions of the Kruger).

    1.2 Inside Frames, outside cylinders.
    Cylinders to rear of smokebox, wide slidebars or external valve gear. Slidebars cover leading driving wheels
    go to 4 Cylinder key (4)
    Cylinders alongside smokebox, narrow slidebars, cylinders well forward of the leading driving wheels
    go to 2 Cylinder Key (2)

    2) 2 Cylinder Key
    4-4-2 or 4-6-0, short cab with no side windows or room for them, first two drivers almost touching
    Saint (2900)
    4-6-0 Continuous single splasher over driving wheels, not individual splashers , side window cab
    County 4-6-0 (1000)
    4-6-0 side window Cab (side windows were plated over in wartime), individual splashers over drivers
    go to 2 Cyl Mixed Traffic key (3)

    3) 2 Cyl Mixed Traffic

    Footplate raised over cylinders, rear wheel splasher does not merge into cab
    Grange (6800)

    Footplate raised over cylinders, over 1/3 of rear wheel splasher runs into cab. Valance on footplate about half the depth of Grange and other 4-6-0s. Smaller diameter boiler with safety valve cover close to firebox, and not on a cladding ring: quite unlike other GWR 4-6-0 boilers.
    Manor (7800)

    grangevmanor.gif


    Footplate at same level between end platforms, not raised over cylinders
    Raised main frames visible above footplate at front (similar to Castles and Stars, but without the inside cylinders.)
    Modified Hall (6998)

    Footplate at same level between end platforms, not raised over cylinders
    No raised main framing above footplate at the front
    Hall (4900)

    4) 4 Cylinder Key
    4-4-2 with external Walschaerts valve gear, outside frame on front bogie, no cab window
    102 La France

    4-4-2 with external Walschaerts valve gear, inside frame on front bogie, cab window
    103 President, 104 Alliance

    4-4-2 or 4-6-0, Short cab with no side windows or room for them, inside frames on bogie.
    Star (4000-4072) (Some Stars were later converted to Castles and given side window cabs).

    4-6-0, Side window Cab, (side windows were plated over in wartime), splashers merge into cab, inside frames on bogie
    Castle (4073-4999, 5000-5999, 7000-7023, 100A1, 4000, 4009, 4016, 4032, 4037 )

    4-6-0 Side Window Cab, (side windows were plated over in wartime), splashers barely reach cab (on R/h side this is obscured by casing for screw reverse, but still evident), exceptionally massive boiler and short funnel, bogie has frames outside the leading wheel and inside the trailing one.
    King (6000-6027)

    4-6-2, tiny cab with no side windows, massive and very long boiler, inside frames on front bogie and trailing wheels
    The Great Bear (111). (Later converted to a Castle)
     
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  2. Kinghambranch

    Kinghambranch Well-Known Member

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    Personally I think all GWR 4-6-0s are very distinguished and, if my numbers come up on the Lottery, I would definitely buy one!
     
  3. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Nah. Still all look the same. :)
     
  4. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Doesn't this sort of prove the point?;)
     
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  5. TonyMay

    TonyMay New Member

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    To summarise: "they're all very different!"

    Methinks the lady doth protest too much
     
  6. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    No, we just like baiting GWR lovers as they bite so easily! Every time.
     
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  7. Reading General

    Reading General Well-Known Member

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    well personally I can't tell the difference between a West Country and a Battle of Britain
     
  8. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    It's dead easy. A West Country has a plate saying 'West Country Class' and a Battle of Britain has a plate saying 'Battle of Britain Class'.
     
  9. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    That's coz, broadly speaking, there ain't any difference. :)
     
  10. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    That assumes a modicum of literacy. :)
     
  11. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    You're right.
     
  12. maddog

    maddog New Member

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    Seemingly not as effective as much as mentioning Thompson with regards to LNER though ;)
     
  13. Neil_Scott

    Neil_Scott Member

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    I can quite easily tell the difference between an original Bulleid and a rebuilt the one: the originals are dreadful and the rebuilts are awesome.
     
  14. John Stewart

    John Stewart Well-Known Member

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    A wonderful explanation. It was always Manors and Granges that confused me (although being able to read the names did help). Having checked the specifications it would seem that a Manor could do much the same job as a Grange for six tons less. Can any GWR experts enlighten us?
     
  15. John Petley

    John Petley Well-Known Member

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    I don't claim to be a GWR expert, but the Manors had a smaller boiler - a type not used on any other class. The Grange had the same No. 1 boiler as used on the Stars, Saints, 28xxs, Halls and Modified Halls. Result: the Grange was the more powerful engine ofthe two classes, even if tractive effort was identical. However, the Manor had a wider route availability. Open to correction or elaboration from someone who really is a GWR expert!
     
  16. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Not that I'd call myself an expert but...
    The Manor was a significantly lightened Grange for much wider RA. Although it was a bit shorter and they did a bunch of other stuff, the weight reduction was mainly done by fitting a smaller boiler, which was roughly between the Std 2 as used on the large Prairie tanks etc and the excellent Std 1 as used on the Granges and much else. Unfortunately in its original form the boiler wasn't up to much, with the result that although the Granges were arguably the best of the MT 4-6-0s, the Manors, shall we say, presented an opportunity for development. Fortunately Ell was on the case, and according to Cox in 'Chronicles of steam' the maximum continuous steam rate was doubled with revised draughting so it got reasonably close to the capacity of the Std 1 on a Hall.

    Quite. Only known case where you can wind up the supporters of a line by stating that their man *wasn't* an incompetent fool!
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2015
  17. Reading General

    Reading General Well-Known Member

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    easy to distinguish GWR 4-6-0s....Manors are wonderful and the locos get more wondrous the bigger they get...simples.
     
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  18. david1984

    david1984 Well-Known Member

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    MN's are hardly a world of difference either...

    It's simple really, in easy to spot, laymans terms:

    King - outside/inside bearings on the front bogie

    Castle - Large boiler, inside cylinders below the smokebox door

    Star - As above with smaller boiler

    Saint - Star minus insider cylinders and earlier non side window cab

    Hall - Saint with smaller wheels and later windowed cab

    Grange - Hall with smaller wheels, step in running plate above the cylinders

    Manor - Grange with smaller boiler, usually a 3000 or 3,500 gallon tender (7802 excepted)

    County - Straight nameplate and continous splashers.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2015
  19. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Indeed!
     
  20. JMJR1000

    JMJR1000 Member

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    Well yeah, their adoration and belief of the company's absolute superiority is unparalleled. Let us not forget this is a company it's admirers, as well as itself, forever referred the GWR as: GOD'S WONDERFUL RAILWAY!!

    This certainly mustn't have been lost on Reverend W. Awdry, since the resident Great Western engines on Sodor we're just as bad in boasting forever how great their company was...
     

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