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Edward Thompson: Wartime C.M.E. Discussion

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by S.A.C. Martin, May 2, 2012.

  1. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    The discussion though was in the context of Victorian locos, specifically LBSCR ones, when to a greater degree, parts - especially major parts, such as tanks - weren’t routinely swapped at overhaul. (In that context, Brighton works had the characteristic over many decades of being very badly laid out, such that Crewe level organisation of repairs would have been impossible even had the management will been there). A.C. Perryman’s “When Steam was King at Brighton” gives a good account of loco overhaul in the 1920s and 1930s: even then, locos going into Brighton were put into a bay and broken down, parts refurbished and built back up again all in situ by one gang. Crewe it was not.

    Tom
     
  2. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Fair point Tom. I wonder when the changes occurred from individual locos keeping individual parts to pools of spares?
     
  3. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Its surely going to have been a gradual process., and different for every works and management.
     
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  4. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

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    Yup. I went round Doncaster Works in 1960 and of course there were some cops there for southern spotters, but older heads than mine were saying--- just because that boiler is numbered 60089 doesn't mean you can underline it.
     
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  5. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Reading biographies of Brighton supremos*, I was surprised at the scale and scope of repairs carried out at the New Cross facility in pre-grouping days. Until the new C&W facility at Lancing got going, the loco repairs backlog at Brighton was a regular issue at board meetings, with substantial numbers of locos stored OOS (for repair or scrapping) around Sussex ..... and that was after Stroudley's standardisation programme!

    *up to Billinton Snr's time, superintendents were responsible for marine matters too.
     
  6. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Indeed. I believe at one point fully half of the LBSCR loco fleet was unavailable, most of it rusticating in out of the way spots on the system waiting for the chance to go into the works. There are well known photos from the early twentieth century of line upon line of locos in the sidings still Horsted Keynes, which was one such location.

    It didn’t help that the Brighton works site was bisected down the middle by the mainline, with the result that locos needing to move between shops struggled to do so except at the dead of night. The board also seem to have prevaricated for years about setting up a separate C&W works to free up space at Brighton for locos. That prevarication arguably was partly responsible for the fall of at least two Locomotive Superintendents.

    Tom
     
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  7. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    'Standardisation' doesn't necessarily mean simple interchangeability of parts in the way that your garage will do today. For example, the injectors and valves may be the same but, unless they are accurately jig drilled, don't expect them to be simply taken off one loco and bolted onto another without some gentle 'adjustment'. It will be even more fun when you come to bearings because the likes of crankpins and axles will vary from loco to loco, even if to the same drawing when first built. They wear and are then re-furbished by machining until a satisfactory condition is arrived at.
     
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  8. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Certainly that's very true ..... though in the case of the LBSC, it needs to be kept firmly in mind that Stroudley's predecessor, John Chester Craven, was pretty much the complete polar antithesis of standardisation!
     
  9. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    Forgive me but what you say about mixing parts is sensible but it is absolutely true that it did happen in some places.
     
  10. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I'll go out on a limb here and say I think Craven is another who has perhaps been badly served by history.

    Certainly, in comparison with Stroudley, he followed a path without standardisation. However, in comparison with many of his contemporaries, his output looks rather less anomalous: by my count Joseph Beattie managed to produce no fewer than 18 distinct classes of 2-4-0 locos...

    It's also worth remembering that that period (say 1850 - 1870) was one of rapid technological progress, and development of the demands placed on locomotives by rapidly expanding traffic. Loco fleets were expanding rather than broadly static, and in an era of engineering when locomotives were somewhat bespoke anyway, was there really a significant problem if a demand for yet more locos was met by a new design incorporating improvements and enhancements in power? An 1850 design would be pretty well obsolete for its original function by 1870 - so what do you do: carry on the same design, or do something new? It's worth remembering that more or less contemporary with Craven, his neighbour on the South Eastern - James Cudworth - was removed from office for the opposite offence: his policy of standardisation meant that he was reluctant to build the bigger locos that the traffic demanded, until eventually the board forced his resignation by insisting that he ordered, in humiliating fashion, a class of large express locomotives closely based on the LNWR "Precedents". Probably Craven's policy of bespoke locos for each duty - as the Brighton system expanded - was relatively sound for the first fifteen years or so of his tenure, to the early 1860s. Thereafter, standardisation would have paid benefits as the young company grew into early middle age, but it was his misfortune that the 1860s were marked by financial instability, prompting perhaps too much rebuilding at the expense of new standardised construction.

    Ultimately, the popular story is that Craven was removed from office because the lack of standardisation meant he couldn't keep pace with the demands needed on the fleet. But I don't think that is really the whole story - rather, it was the inadequacy of situation of Brighton works, coupled with a rapidly expanding fleet that put him on the back foot. Even given a fleet of 250 identical locos (at least "identical" in the sense understood in the mid nineteenth century), the organisation at Brighton would have defeated efforts to keep enough in traffic. So I don't think it was the lack of standardisation that was the root of his troubles (though the board identified such), but the failure of the board to get to grips with the issues of the constrained site at Brighton. (Map here: see how the paint shop and wagon shop are physically remote from the rest of the works; and the lines to the upper goods yard prevent any expansion to the east or south; the mainline prevents expansion to the west and the East Coast Line prevents any expansion northwards).

    Worth pointing out as well for all his qualities, Stroudley increasingly struggled to keep the fleet running with anything approaching reasonable availability; to which can also be added that his loco policy - standardisation and all - took the company down a blind alley. For all their qualities, the bequest of "Gladstone" express engines and "Como" class mixed traffic engines to his successor were essentially incapable of the development occurring on on other railways rapidly moving from 2-4-0 to 4-4-0 to 4-4-2 types; and the G class singles, by the early 20th century, were hopelessly outdated. But Stroudley's locos did benefit from soundness of construction giving longevity, he was an innovator in braking and he was fortunate in having a devoted fan club, in the Stephenson Loco Society and elsewhere, batting for his reputation in the early years of the last century! On such matters does historical reputation get made, and opinion turn into fact...

    Tom
     
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  11. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    I have decided against my better judgement, and in the spirit of trying to build bridges rather than burn them, to post up the current draft chapter on Bert Spencer that I alluded to in the discussion previously.

    I do want to make a few caveats:

    • This is not the finished version
    • There are errors I am aware of
    • I have revisions to make from information I have been given by others which will ultimately change this piece
    I should also state:
    • The tone of this chapter is unlikely to change
    • I have no intention of going into further detail on the ins and outs of conjugated valve gear in this chapter
    So please, have a read, consider what I am writing and why. Please - and this does not apply to the regulars on this thread whose responses are always of good quality and respectful - please be constructive. We are all learning here and by posting this, in its raw form, my hope is that I too learn from this and am able to give a more rounded, fair account of Bert Spencer in the same way I hope to do for Thompson.

    Fair? If so, read on.

     
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  12. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Perhaps you've identified a suitable next challenge for our @S.A.C. Martin there, Tom! :D

    The manner in which Craven operated certainly wasn't unique and had there been questions over his competence, he wouldn't have continued for years as a respected consultant to many railways. For several more decades, the Highland Railway (admittedly a far less busy concern) produced multiple classes in low numbers, for specific services. A glance at the Caley's stock list reveals much the same. Actually, once Stroudley arrived on the scene, the LBSC seems to have replaced obsolete classes in fairly short order, that process starting well ahead of the train weight increase of 1890-1910 which highlighted power issues with Robert Billinton's B2s. Of interest, when did the last Craven loco (rebuilt or original) bite the dust?

    The most cursory glance at the GSR and later the CIÉ (over in Ireland) reveals a quite staggering lack of standardisation, inherited from all the non-standardised pre-grouping stock. The small but busy Dublin & South Eastern demonstrated a surprising number of variants on the 2-4-0T theme, mostly gone within a few years of the 1925 grouping (it was always a difficult road to adequately provide for*, right down to the DART electrification). The dire financial straits of the Irish Railways ensured this situation endured until the final demise of steam, as withdrawals seemed to reflect no intention to weed out complete individual classes en-bloc and that's before you add the multiplicity of boiler varieties within any given class into the sums!

    *in the earliest days, the atmospheric system was tried .... and abandoned.
     
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  13. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I have no quibble with the text per se but only with a few minor grammar / spelling mistakes;

    Paragraph 2 : valves where concerned to read valves were concerned

    Paragraph 4 : working on Gresley’s behalf to the emergency board whenever Gresley was unavailable to read reporting to the emergency board on Gresley's behalf when the latter was unavailable

    Paragraph 5 : was increasingly on to read was increasingly directed to

    Paragraph 14 : Doing this to read Making these changes

    Paragraph 18 : Date of meeting needed - presented to the Institution of Mechanical Engineers [on date]

    Paragraph 20 : Date of presentation needed - L.N.E.R.’s emergency board [in date]

    These are only a few (personal) corrections based on my premise that writing is like music - it needs to have a discernible rhythm and flow that makes the text interesting to read and I offer these examples for your consideration. It does suggest that your final text will need a reviewer to tease out such rhythms.
     
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  14. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Somewhere on this forum ages ago I did the analysis. I can't remember exactly, but I think the last Craven loco lasted to about 1898 or thereabouts, apart from one or two kept for another few years as quasi-mobile steam supplies at shed.

    One of the points from the analysis as I recall was that if you looked at the lifetime of locos by Craven, Beattie and Cudworth as three more or less contemporary engineers, their locos all lasted more or less similar lengths of time. There is no evidence to suggest in that light that Craven's locos were markedly less useful to their owners than those of Beattie and Cudworth. The continued existence for very niche reasons of the three (nominally) Beattie locos into the 1960s disguises the fact that just as with other engineers of that era, his locos were all mostly gone within about 25 - 28 years of his leaving office.

    (Edit: from memory, Craven left office at the end of 1869 and his last locos went about 1898. Cudworth left office in 1875 and the last few of his went in about 1902. Beattie also left office about 1875; the vast majority of his had gone by about 1900, though as I recall a handful of his standard goods 0-6-0s lasted just into the 1920s, probably saved by the war; plus of course the three well tanks surviving for sixty years beyond their sisters. But it was only a handful lasting past 1900).

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2019
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  15. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Apologies to @S.A.C. Martin for the thread drift. For @30854, I found the graph I did.

    To put it in context: year 0 on the x axis is the year the designer left office - so 1870 for Craven; 1875 for Cudworth and Beattie. The y axis is the cumulative number of their locos that had been scrapped by the year in question. (For context, Craven built 203 locos; Beattie 330 and Cudworth 316).

    The first notable thing is that Cudworth scrapped a lot of his own locos, a consequence of a long tenure in office. (i.e. he was starting to scrap his own 1840s locos by the the late 1850s, that being a period of particularly intesnse locomotive development meaning locos very quickly became obsolete ...)

    The more noticeable point though is the near equal slope of the lines for much of their length in the era beyond their retirement. That suggests that their successors broadly scrapped their locos more or less in line with age: there is nothing to suggest that one designer made distinctly inferior locos relative to those of their contemporaries.

    One way to look at longevity is to see how long it took after the departure of the designer for their locomotive stock to be reduced to only, say, 10% remaining. The comparative figures are:

    Craven: 203 locos; 90% had gone at some point in 1894, which is 24 years after his departure
    Cudworth: 316 locos, 90% had gone by the end of 1901, which is 26 years after his departure
    Beattie: 330 locos, 90% had gone by the middle of 1898, which is 23 years after his departure.

    (A similar chart of ... ahem ... Dugald Drummond might be interesting. All those embarrassing 4-6-0s...)

    victorian-engines-3.png


    Tom
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2019
  16. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    No apologies required Tom. I am finding the thread drift interesting and it sometimes helps to read something else other than Thompson related sources - see the wood for the trees, etc...
     
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  17. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    This approach would be interesting to apply to a number of eras and companies; I think especially either side of Grouping. The Modernisation Plan would distort the Big 4 figures significantly, but for earlier CMEs it would give a good measure of whose were the most successful, by how long their designs outlasted them.
     
  18. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    You could - though I haven’t - plot similar charts for other designers.

    My hunch -unproven - is that the Edwardians built the longest lived locos. Before that, lifetime was curtailed by rapid development leading to obsolescence of relatively new locos. By the 1930s / 1940s, onset of dieselisation / electrification meant premature withdrawal by virtue of the duties the loco being built for disappearing, the most striking example of that being the very rapid withdrawal of the Riddles locos for reasons entirely unrelated to their inherent underlying quality.

    Edit: @35B obviously thought likewise.

    Tom
     
  19. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    With those reasons in mind it might be more interesting to plot graphs for contemporary designers on different railways, although I'm sure even then there would have to be lots of asterisks to explain particular peculiarities which would mean the results wouldn't be directly comparable all things being fair!
     
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  20. ragl

    ragl Well-Known Member

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    So how do we measure success here and how do you value that success??

    Cheerz,

    alan
     

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