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Edward Thompson: Wartime C.M.E. Discussion

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by S.A.C. Martin, May 2, 2012.

  1. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    I very much doubt that you can. It's all hypothesis but if the powers that be had decided to trial them on the GN in attempt to make better use of them, then I surmise that the shed masters involved would have just got on with it.
     
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  2. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    I'll put it another way: if you are running a locomotive depot, and you are offered six locomotives from another depot, what would you want to know about these locomotives before agreeing to take them on? On the LNER, locomotives were allocated according to a wide range of criteria which included their availability and likely maintenance regimes (for instance: what works or local facilities/knowledge of the class). Shedmasters could and did reject inferior traction, and locomotive running superintendents for different areas could also reject moves of locomotives too.

    There's a weird underlying assumption from many railway enthusiasts that the LNER had people within its ranks acting like Gods: the truth is rather more boring and fundamentally the LNER was a business with many hierarchies, procedures, rules, and internal decision making split across a number of departments and roles.

    What we are analysing is what actually happened - the P2s were not moved south. Why didn't they move south? Nobody asked for them, and nobody volunteered them, so far as we can make out from the official record. We know that they were better machines when rebuilt, and when moved south did good work there too after being replaced by newer traction (largely an unsurprising move, newer traction replacing older traction).

    In the argument of what should have happened versus what was likely, where the P2s are concerned I feel there's a hugely romantic view of the class that results in eyes being blinded to the evidence and faults inherent.
     
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  3. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    As I said, it’s all hypothetical but if higher authority had said “use these and see how they fare,” the chosen shedmasters May well have done so reluctantly and may well have found all manner of reason not to use them. But it didn’t happen so we shall never know.
     
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  4. Sheff

    Sheff Resident of Nat Pres

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    I’m not sure what’s going on here - we seem to have descended into some kind of repetitive circular brickbat flinging competition.

    My view of the whole Thompson story as told by Simon is this ….

    I grew up as a worshiper at the altar of SNG and venerated all his works. I totally bought into the narrative that ET was a bitter and twisted individual whose sole purpose was to desecrate SNGs legacy, and in particular his glorious P2s.

    Thanks to Simon’s research I an now open to the argument, backed by the evidence, that maybe he wasn’t primarily motivated by an urge to vandalise his predecessor’s work, but more so that financial pressures forced his hand.

    Now as an research and development engineer I might have taken a different route to solving some of the problems but then I rarely saw eye-to-eye with the company finance dept (and I still firmly believe that conjugated gear, engineered properly, is the simplest and easiest to maintain gear for 3cyl locos). And my views haven’t changed, being a strong supporter of the new P2 in its reengineered form, plus the work that we do at the Advanced Steam Traction Trust in bringing incremental improvements to locos old and new.

    So instead of just crying foul, why not take off the blinkers, buy the book and judge the evidence for yourselves?
     
  5. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Not just the P2s. I see across the new build movement an enthusiasm for recreating classes that weren't that great [both types of GWR County for instance, or putting the flaws back in a Merchant Navy]
     
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  6. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    To be fair, we had Sans Pareil a while back, but still can't wait for the Webb 'Greater Britain' 2-2-2-2! ;)
     
  7. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Careful now.
     
  8. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Which points to the restricted UK gauge as a possible cause of the problems encountered by the P2 fleet. Hence, as noted by Simon, if the P2 could be withdrawn from service because alternative (and capable) Pacifics were available why spend time and money trying to solve their problems - especially in time of war when resources could be better spent.
     
  9. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Surely Simon's research goes further than that, showing that vandalising Gresley's work didn't come into it at all, with Thompson planning to retain the vast majority of Gresley's locos into the post-war period, and departing from Gresley's design features only for new builds.
     
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  10. Sheff

    Sheff Resident of Nat Pres

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    Quite possibly, but I’ve not read the book yet ……. ;)
     
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  11. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    I would argue strongly that he didn't depart from Gresley features at all. A Thompson Pacific uses three sets of Gresley Walschaerts valve gear after all, in reality. The rest of the loco is virtually the same, the only significant difference lies in removing conjugated gear and by way of equal length connecting rods, elongating the front end a few feet. The Peppercorn Pacifics were more compact, certainly, but were also very much "of Gresley" and "of Thompson" too.

    Thompson's engineering was far more conservative than his immediate contemporary on the Southern, whose own pacific work was very different from that Gresley had produced. The funny thing is, people up to now seem to think of Bulleid following Gresley principles, with Thompson departing from them, but the truth is exactly the opposite!
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
  12. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I understand that whilst under Gresley Bulleid's enthusiasm for experimentation was severely restricted although sharing Gresley's willingness to investigate new / improved technologies. It was when he was employed by the Southern Railway, desperate for new locomotives to replace antiquated designs, that his enthusiasm was given free reign hence the Bulleid chain drive became the Gresley conjugated valve gear - good when working BUT a pain to maintain. His concept of the BB/ WC being a standard go-anywhere do any job was fine in theory but the maintenance problems of the design let that theory down IMHO - especially in post-war UK when labour was reluctant to undertake the task. A good locomotive designer needs to include the cost of maintenance in his design(s) and the more complex the design the more difficult maintenance will be to find and fund - as BR found out hence the desire to move to maintenance-less diesel and electric traction.
     
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  13. jnc

    jnc Well-Known Member

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    And here I was just thinking 'what a nice respectful and open-minded but informed and incisive discussion we were seeing on an interesting point'. [PS: I was posting that at an early point in the thread - the tone did go down a tiny bit after that point, but fortunately not far.] Yes, @Spamcan81 was boring in, asking what evidence was available, and perhaps not in exactly the same spirit as other posters, but as a general proposition, isn't that how one makes progress, by trying to find evidence that can shed light on the point being enquired into? As long as the 'respectful and open-minded' is retained, I don't see a problem.

    Noel
     
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  14. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    While not disagreeing with the thrust of the post, my understanding has always been that chain drive was an expedient forced on OVSB by wartime constraints, the original intention being for cardan shafts, which were the wrong side of the Atlantic at the time the MNs were being designed.

    As per the research in Simon's book, some reference to source materials would settle the point once and for all ..... as much as anything is ever settled 'once and for all'!
     
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  15. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Well said and as it wasn't said by Simon or (insert the name of anyone who is seen as pro 'X' or anti 'Y') then maybe it will draw a line under one of the most interesting and informative threads on NP without it continuing unnecessarily now that the work has been done.

    People write books for a variety of reasons ranging from 'just' making money because they are a known author and have a fan base to forensic researchers looking for an objective evaluation with a possibly less attractive readership appeal and income outcome. Both have value but there really has been some narrow-mindedness emerging on this thread from some people who seem to dislike the orthodoxy of history and opinion being challenged.

    Fortunately they are in a minority and now know that fact.
     
  16. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

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    I had to look for it, but in a good thread, this was one of the best posts.
     
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  17. Kylchap

    Kylchap Member

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    I think it's possible to have a romantic view of the P2s - the originals were very handsome and in theory one of the most powerful classes built in the UK - whilst fully recognising their weaknesses.
    Quite a few of the classes that have been rated highly, during their working lives and during preservation, started off with substantial problems due to design or build faults: the original Gresley A1s were disappointing until rebuilt with long-travel valve gear; the 5XPs were poor steamers until the draughting was improved; V2s had a habit of jumping off the track with their original type pony truck; 71000 was a lemon during its BR career. Dare I also mention Bulleid's pacifics?
    The P2s suffered because they were overtaken by other priorities such as the A4s and by events such as WW2. The original design as a 2-8-2 was never fully developed. I like to think that Thompson and A1SLT have both attempted to bring the P2s to their full potential, though choosing different pathways.
     
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  18. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Well said.
     
  19. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Love the "income outcome" bit. Even better than Donnie Rumsfeld's 'known unknowns!

    Our @S.A.C. Martin could of course ride both horses simultaneously, by copyrighting some distinctive faces and monikers for a couple of Thompson rebuilds before the lucre-hungry corporate raiders behind the TTTE bunch (all together now ..... boo ..... hissss) get their paws on 'em. Anyone for "Billy the Bongo"?

    As to scope of specialist appeal, many moons ago, that marvellous modelmaker and biographer of obscure NG lost causes, the much missed Ted Wade suggested "Narrow Gauge and Rubberware, for the Bondage Enthusiast by Pekaboo of Seaton" as a possible title, much to the chagrin of one Mr. Cyril Freezer, late of that parish. As fine as was the supporting artwork, I don't ever recall seeing any actual sales projections.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
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  20. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    This is a forum open to all so you have got a cheek suggesting that I should to reconsider posting in this thread, is it because maybe you don't like criticism, and as for me displaying bad temper, tell me where I pray have I shown this.
    Maybe when this book is published and you get criticised for its content you will need to reassess your stance.
     

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