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European Steam Post-1945

Discussion in 'International Heritage Railways/Tramways' started by MuzTrem, Oct 24, 2016.

  1. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Active Member

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    Picking up from post #96 of the Pannier Tanks thread...

    What I'd be interested to know is, did Germany dieselise to the extent that Britain did? Or did they go straight from steam to electric in most areas, which is what Riddles originally intended to do when he initiated construction of the BR Standards? How did German railways fare financially in comparison to BR? And did Germany have the same problems in recruiting labour to work with steam traction as BR did?

    To me, the question "should BR have built the Standards?" is one of the most intriguing in British Railway history, so it would be fascinating to be able to draw detailed comparisons with what was going one elsewhere in Europe...
     
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  2. 45045

    45045 New Member

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    I think in some areas of W Germany (Munster/Emden etc) went from steam to electric in the 70s.
     
  3. Cartman

    Cartman Active Member

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    As far as I know, both France and West Germany ran steam until 1977, Italy and Austria, I think, 1976. Other Western European countries ended steam earlier than Britain. Holland sometime in the early to mid 50s, Denmark about the same time as we did, not sure about Norway and Sweden. I think Spain and Portugal slightly after Britain, 1970 ish at a guess. Southern Ireland was quite a few years earlier than Britain, 1962 or 3, but Northern Ireland ran the 2-6-4tanks until 1970.

    Southern Ireland had a different approach to dieselisation, although it was probably forced on them by lack of coal, they never really had very many modern steam locos, apart from some N Class 2-6-0s which were assembled from parts after World War 1 and three 4-6-0s which looked a bit like Scots. They seemed to go straight from Victorian 0-6-0s, 4-4-0s and 2-4-0s to first generation diesels
     
  4. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Part of the furniture

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    I'd suggest reading Gourvish - just returned it to the library.

    BR suffered much the same problems of British Industry at the same period with management and funds for investment along with some poor decision making (eg retaining Vacuum brakes & Steam Heat)

    Unlike for example Ireland & Holland we also had large coal reserves.

    In some respects The Standards were a very poor decision but in other ways it made some sense at the time
     
  5. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Part of the furniture Friend

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    Spotted on a French forum:

    le dernier train fret tracté vapeur en France circule le 24 septembre 1975 de Troyes à Ste Colombe, tracté par la 140 C 287.

    I have a book - Les Vapeurs en couleurs - which is rather nice...
     
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  6. 240P15

    240P15 Active Member

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    In Norway our 3 last steam locos in service were withdrawn from service in june 1971, all 2-6-0 mogul engines of class 21. Amongst them were no. 376 today preserved in UK.:)

    Czechia had steam locos in service well until 1980`s i think, and also Sudan. Poland , Bulgaria and Roumania into the 1990`s?
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
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  7. SilentHunter86

    SilentHunter86 Member

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    The Dutch withdrew their last steam locomotives in 1958.

    As for Germany, the 'Interzonen' trains between East and West remained steam well into the 1970s; Berlin's 'Stadtbahn' (the main west-east line through Zoo and the now Hauptbahnhof) did not get fully wired up until 1993.
     
  8. 240P15

    240P15 Active Member

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    I think the last one in the DDR was one of the 01.5 class still as strategic reserve in Saalfeld 1977.

    Knut:)
     
  9. marshall5

    marshall5 Active Member

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    Maybe I've misunderstood the question but regular steam working lasted well beyond 1977 at Saalfeld. I was there in 1979 and something like 50% of the traffic was still steam worked with 01.5's on expresses, several freight classes and 95's on local workings. I believe the last scheduled s.g. steam hauled train on D.R. was on 26/5/88 but locos from the strategic reserve were occasionally steamed after that. I saw class 52's stored in working order at Berlin Shoenewiede (sp?) in 1993. The official last regular working on D.B. was with 043-903-4 on 26/10/77.
    BTW in post #6 I think you may have meant Sudan not "Egypt".
    Ray.
     
  10. Johann Marsbar

    Johann Marsbar Member

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    Got a ride behind this one in October 1981 to/from Saalfeld.......

    81-613.JPG

    Does anyone know the last "official" (ie non - Wolstzyn) steam workings on the PKP standard gauge in Poland?

    Went on a trip there in 1999 and got the impression that at places like Elk, in the former East Prussia, it hadn't been finished for very long.

    There was certainly a servicable Ol49 running out of Gdynia (or in that general area) at weekends at that time.
     
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  11. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Went to Poland in December 1990 and quite a few places still had regular steam workings but that was a few years before your 1999 visit.
     
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  12. 5944

    5944 Part of the furniture

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    Last Swiss Federal Railway (SBB) steam service was 30th November 1968 - not bad for a fully electrified network!

    Last Italian Railway (FS) operational steam loco seems to have been a little 0-6-0T, 835.166, in use until 6th January 1984 (though a 2-6-0, 625.100, was nominally on the books until 1998).
     
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  13. ilvaporista

    ilvaporista Part of the furniture

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    Italy is strange as steam was never really withdrawn finally. Many depots still had (and have...) steam loco allocations that are out of service. Fabriano kept it's "pet" in working order and was steamed every so often. Now most steam locos form part of the FS Foundation and signs are looking good for the future. It would be interesting to see what further info. I can find. I'll be meeting the oracle on all things steam on FS soon so will ask him.
     
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  14. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

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    Am I right in thinking there are no heritage railways as we know them in Italy ?
     
  15. Johann Marsbar

    Johann Marsbar Member

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    This was the Ol49 working in the Gdynia area - seen on a 2 coach special for our tour group. There was track down there somewhere!

    99-322.JPG
     
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  16. ilvaporista

    ilvaporista Part of the furniture

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    Not as you would understand the term. But the situation is evolving and there are things happening in the background. Our forum member Sant can probably provide a better insight in to the current position.
     
  17. 240P15

    240P15 Active Member

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    Thanks for correcting me sir:)
     
  18. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Saw some lines much like that on my trip. We did lines in the north around Olzstyn - couldn't get round the shed, Ełk - shed access no problem, Ketrzyn and Wolzstyn. Also the narrow gauge lines out of Sroda and Gniezno.
     
  19. 99Z

    99Z Active Member

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    Last scheduled steam freight at Wolsztyn was October 2002.
    After that it became Disneyland.

    Has Tuzla stopped using the BR52’s yet ?
     
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  20. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Part of the furniture

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    And the answer is "Lack of funds"

    Riddles was a proponent of electrification but understood (and accepted) the initial costs to provide the infrastructure were beyond then available resources.

    Diesel traction was an unknown quantity hence the Pilot Scheme in 1954 that was abandoned in 1956 when bulk orders were placed. In addition any then available diesel expertise came from either Germany or the USA - both of which would lead to money going abroad at the expense of domestic (i.e. UK) investment.

    Hence the Standard designs that were intended to retain simplicity and maintenance accessibility with the advantages of (a) using known skills and technology to (b) provide quick replacements for war-damaged rolling stock whilst (c) providing employment to the railway workshops.

    Unfortunately these long term plans were confounded by the Governments of the day whose short term policy changes interfered with the long term investment policies; these were confounded by a Minister of Transport (Ernest Marples) who was determined to prioritise road investment at the expense of rail investment hence the planned ECML electrification taking just over 30 years to complete (proposed for 1959 and finally completed in the early 1990s). NOTE : Other examples of delays due to Government interference / pressure are available !!
     

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