If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

FR & WHR & WHHR News

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by AndrewT, Jul 17, 2012.

  1. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    7,587
    Likes Received:
    7,816
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    That's one I'd like to know the answer to as well. Certainly, some kit which started life on (I think) the LCDR with 6-wheels had the centre set* removed for post-grouping service on the IoW. IIRC, the preserved 'Ventnor West' p-p pair, on the IWSR, are such vehicles, though in both cases their undergubbins is ex-GUV (or is it PLV .... you know the things I mean!)

    Going 'the other way', post-grouping, the SR rejected a suggestion to rebuild the ex-Metn Rly 8-wheelers (inherited from the IWR) on bogies. A few of the bodies survive and there are two schools of thought as to their eventual restoration.

    Mounting former 4w and 6w bodies on bogie underframes was a practise by no means restricted to the Isle of Man Rly. Makes perfect financial sense, when carriage bodies were so well constructed.
     
  2. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    3,298
    Likes Received:
    6,567
    Location:
    Here, there, everywhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    A guess suggests that there maybe something in this. 6 wheelers continued for milk traffic pretty much until the end of such traffic. Milk is of course something you want to be able to move fast but also to have a smooth ride (otherwise you end up with butter).
     
    andrewshimmin and Glenmutchkin like this.
  3. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Messages:
    820
    Likes Received:
    939
    Well, I certainly wouldn't mind seeing a replica Beddgelert, but there's a lovely half-size version at Fairbourne which still needs cash to steam again...let's get that one running first, eh?

    (Not least because I'll get to fire it when it's done...assuming this wretched pandemic finally dies down! )

    Sent from my SM-A125F using Tapatalk
     
    andrewshimmin and 61624 like this.
  4. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Messages:
    820
    Likes Received:
    939
    There are, IIRC, a couple of North London Railway 4-wheelers at the Pallot Steam Museum, Jersey, which have been mounted on bogies, to allow them to negotiate a very tight circular track. They look a bit odd but it seems to work!

    Sent from my SM-A125F using Tapatalk
     
  5. black5

    black5 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2006
    Messages:
    1,680
    Likes Received:
    1,700
    Occupation:
    Theatre
    Location:
    Merseyside>Bury
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    A selection of video stills from Saturday of the Superpower Weekend
    S7370009.jpeg
    S7410006.jpeg
    S7410013.jpeg
     
  6. black5

    black5 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2006
    Messages:
    1,680
    Likes Received:
    1,700
    Occupation:
    Theatre
    Location:
    Merseyside>Bury
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Video featuring the K1, 130, 87, Vale of Ffestiniog and DLG
     
    Britfoamer and 30854 like this.
  7. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    3,298
    Likes Received:
    6,567
    Location:
    Here, there, everywhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    At the NNR there are some 6 wheelers and some 4 wheelers maybe @M59137 could tell us about the experience/differences between the two?
     
    andrewshimmin likes this.
  8. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    7,587
    Likes Received:
    7,816
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    OK, when it was first mentioned, I doubted the digression was worth it's own thread. Looks like I was wrong (nowt too unusual there!), but might I suggest any new thread covers articulated stock too? The issues seem to present a degree of overlap and we've not yet touched on 6w bogies, which certainly don't belong on this thread.
     
  9. James Hewett

    James Hewett New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2015
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    152
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    From a Southwold Railway perspective (yes, I know wrong thread!) our Cleminsons were always supposed to have been chosen because the locos were small and not very powerful - thus the central support axle meant lightweight timber frames could be used, and only three axles reduced weight (axleboxes, springs) still more, the Cleminson mechanism being more wood than metal, and presumably therefore lighter than bogies. All added up to more passengers which could be hauled up our 1 in 40 without the Sharpies stalling (as they were known to do from time to time). I guess also a lot cheaper (at least in metalwork), so a badly-financed NWNGR may have had that as the most important matter in their minds. Surprised they coped with the 3-chain curves at Salem. The SR was similarly short of cash in the early years. Makes sense. Although in engineering circles Mr C was apparently considered a better salesman than an engineer....
    Yes I'd like to see a replica: having been involved in the Gelert's Farm Heritage Train, the idea was always to provide two sets - a "WHR" set for the Baldwin,, and a "NWNGR" set for Russell (Dave Gledhill made three replica NWNGR wagons for a never-realised mixed train in this context). As has been said elsewhere in this thread, neither originals nor replicas have to be commercially practical: in historic aircraft terms the Fairey Battle is as important a fighter as the Spitfire, altho' or because it was a failure.....
     
    MuzTrem likes this.
  10. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    7,587
    Likes Received:
    7,816
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Train weight is an issue I'd not considered. Given the size and power of the NWNG single Fairlies, plus the nature of the route, you might well be on to something there. Many thanks for bringing it into the mix.

    (At the risk of yet more o/t, Blyth is looking absoñutely superb and I just adore that livery!)
     
    MuzTrem likes this.
  11. M59137

    M59137 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2009
    Messages:
    1,143
    Likes Received:
    1,509
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Carriage & Wagon
    Location:
    Sheringham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I don't frequent the NG section of Nat Pres at all, so have no idea how much I'm derailing the thread by answering....but I was shocked how well riding the first 6 wheeler "we" (royal we) finished was, having only experienced 4-wheelers before that. 6 wheels obviously being far superior to 4. I haven't concerned myself in depth with the science behind it. But it's obvious why 6-wheelers were historically favoured for a period of time.

    With regards the extra effort/tech to move from 4 to 6 wheels, the coaches/designs we have are far less technical than one might think. The centre wheel has a special axlebox with a really wide slot to run in the W iron on the chassis, to allow for sideways movement round curves. The leaf springs are attached to the underframe on chains rather than threads/eye bolts, again to allow for sideways movement (not relevent here but these chains make the weights and ride heights a pain in the backside to adjust!!). The centre wheel is not braked, so no need for any fancy sliding brakegear either. Other than those small details, the coach set up (chassis/brakes/cylinders/pull rods/wheels/running gear etc) are all as a "normal" 4-wheeler would be.

    Hope that helps?

    Sent from my moto g(8) power using Tapatalk
     
    MellishR, 30854, clam1952 and 7 others like this.
  12. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Messages:
    820
    Likes Received:
    939
    Thank you - yes, a very helpful and informative reply.

    One thing I would ask though, is: did 6-wheelers retain their better riding characteristics at high speed? Nowadays, we will rarely, if ever, have any opportunity to ride in a 6-wheeler above 25mph.

    Sent from my SM-A125F using Tapatalk
     
  13. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    21,780
    Likes Received:
    41,399
    Location:
    215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    One issue I believe with "current" standard gauge four wheelers is that most of them are on van underframes, which are more stiffly sprung than carriage underframes would have been. So the ride quality of a Victorian four wheeler on most heritage lines is not necessarily immediately comparable to what the vehicle would have been like on its original underframe. (Essentially vans have shorter, stiffer springs than the carriages would originally have had).

    Tom
     
    MuzTrem and Bluenosejohn like this.
  14. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    3,298
    Likes Received:
    6,567
    Location:
    Here, there, everywhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Obviously very different but I guess the only 6 wheeled vehicles travelling at speed are the various tenders behind locos on the mainline.

    Thanks that is really helpful and interesting. Thanks for dropping into the NG section. I am looking forward to reading about the next vintage carriage restoration on the NNR.
     
    andrewshimmin likes this.
  15. marshall5

    marshall5 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2010
    Messages:
    1,887
    Likes Received:
    2,494
    Location:
    i.o.m
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I've ridden in one of the Ballenberg Dampfbahn 6 wheelers over the metre gauge Zentralbahn at line speed (60kph?) and didn't notice the 'ride' much inferior to a bogie carriage except for a slightly more noticeable lurch as it entered a loop at speed. In the future it may be possible to experience riding in a n.g. Cleminson 6 wheeler closer to home.....
    Ray.
     
  16. meeee

    meeee Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Messages:
    702
    Likes Received:
    864
    The FR Cleminson waggon seems to travel quite smoothly from what I can tell. Admittedly I've never sat in it at line speed. It is so short though the middle axle barely deflects at all running around Boston Lodge. Being an early example it doesn't have the double hinged links between the subframes as well. So despite being known as the Cleminson waggon, it doesn't actually conform to his patent.

    There we go. Vaguely back on topic.

    Tim
     
    MuzTrem and andrewshimmin like this.
  17. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    7,587
    Likes Received:
    7,816
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I was beginning to wonder how that'd be achieved ..... Jolly well done that man!! :)

    BTW, in case any missed it, recent updates on NG15 'Kalahari' 2-8-2 No.134 (July and August working parties) reveal a project advancing very nicely. Their (no log-in) FB site's new masthead image illustrates what must now be very close to the final form, in a rather fetching blue livery. There's a link from the project site, url here:

    http://ng15-134.co.uk/Restoration/WPNews.html
     
    mdewell and Bluenosejohn like this.
  18. Bill2

    Bill2 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2020
    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    74
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Wilmslow
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The NWNG Cleminsons were 30 feet long over body and weighed 4¼ tons; later bogie coaches of the same length weighed around 2 tons more. Overall wheelbase of the Cleminsons was 23 feet. Boyd gives various figures for the NWNG's tightest curves, the smallest being 3 chains radius that would require sideways displacement for the centre wheelset of slightly over 4 inches. As built the Cleminsons had no continuous brakes, though two had Guards compartments with handbrakes. There seems to have been some difficulty when it came to fitting these vehicles with the air brake used on the NWNG, and the exact arrangement appears to have escaped record.
     
    30854 and Monkey Magic like this.
  19. Dead Sheep

    Dead Sheep New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2021
    Messages:
    38
    Likes Received:
    39
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Worcestershire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Does anyone know of either the FR, WHR or WHHR plan upon running Christmas season services this year?
     
  20. pgbffest

    pgbffest Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2018
    Messages:
    178
    Likes Received:
    350
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Somewhere with a lot of letters!
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Will probably have a better idea in the middle of next week after various meetings
     

Share This Page