If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

FR & WHR & WHHR News

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by AndrewT, Jul 17, 2012.

  1. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    May 18, 2011
    Messages:
    6,081
    Likes Received:
    2,215
    well I can assure you if they had over carried me to Blaenau or stranded me at TyB then action of some sort would have followed. They would be culpable for failing to unlock the door.

    They checked my ticket before departure and knew I wanted to alight at TyB
     
  2. Steve B

    Steve B Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2008
    Messages:
    1,844
    Likes Received:
    1,226
    Location:
    Shropshire
    I think there are two separate issues here:

    Firstly the issue of safety - the exceptionally tight clearances on many parts of the line and the considerable risk if a door opened whilst in motion, which is what lies behind the requirement to lock outward opening doors.

    Secondly the oversight that led to you almost not being unlocked when you needed to be. This isn't a safety issue, more of a "customer care" one. If they had carried you on to BF you would have every right to seek some sort of redress. But it is not a reason to change their safety related practice.

    My experience of the Ffestiniog and seeking to alight at intermediate stations (my favourite being Dduallt, where they even have to remember to tell the driver to stop, let alone open a door) is that I've never been forgotten. You must have hit them on a off day, I'm afraid.

    Steve B
     
    Black Jim, Rosedale and michaelh like this.
  3. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    11,999
    Likes Received:
    12,249
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, best job I've ever had
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I'm sorry but in the best run organisations mistakes happen, that's life get over it. Why in these circumstances are people's first thoughts about how much money they can extract.
     
  4. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    May 18, 2011
    Messages:
    6,081
    Likes Received:
    2,215
    I just wonder what the result of an incident would be if passengers could not be immediately evacuated, say, for instance, the man/men with the key is/are injured in the accident.
    I tend to believe that locking people in is likely to be more of a hazard than some fool opening a door mid section.
    Is opening an inward opening door any less of a risk to passengers or is it a case that the perceived risk is of damage to the rolling stock?
     
  5. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    May 18, 2011
    Messages:
    6,081
    Likes Received:
    2,215
    that's insulting, that wasn't my first thought at all, merely an example of how litigation might arise.
     
  6. Johnb

    Johnb Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    11,999
    Likes Received:
    12,249
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, best job I've ever had
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    This is what you said;
    "well I can assure you if they had over carried me to Blaenau or stranded me at TyB then action of some sort would havefollowed. They would be culpable for failing to unlock the door."
    Sounds as if that's what you meant, if it wasn't I apologise
     
  7. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    May 18, 2011
    Messages:
    6,081
    Likes Received:
    2,215
    i was refuting your statement in post 9 that they wouldn't be left liable to litigation by showing how they might be. Had I wanted to profit from the situation, all I needed to do was sit tight and not take the action I did to eventually wake up the train staff.
     
  8. Steve B

    Steve B Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2008
    Messages:
    1,844
    Likes Received:
    1,226
    Location:
    Shropshire
    At this point I'm speculating. The clearances in places can be measured in inches. Imagine the effect of a wooden door coming open, opening edge leading, and hitting a rock outcrop at 20mph. It would not necessarily be a case of damage to stock - pity the passengers in the firing line of large splinters and broken glass.

    There have also been suggestions that such a incident could lead to a derailment; even on narrow gauge that might not be the case (depends on how solid the door was), but imagine that was the case. The clearances on one side of the line might be tight - the other side could be a drop down the mountainside.

    As has already been mentioned, the FR has been doing this for a long time, and such questions aren't new. They probably know what they are doing!

    Steve B
     
    Black Jim, Rosedale, michaelh and 2 others like this.
  9. DragonHandler

    DragonHandler Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2016
    Messages:
    1,280
    Likes Received:
    1,578
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    West London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The FR isn't the only railway to lock carriage doors. When I visited the Spa Valley Railway the guard locked the doors between Groombridge and Eridge.
     
  10. Paul_Turner

    Paul_Turner New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2007
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    7
    Why single out the FR for this issue, after all trains on the national network are all locked and presumably a similar risk applies to the person able to unlock being rendered unable.
     
    Rosedale, Johnb, Poolbrook and 3 others like this.
  11. ilvaporista

    ilvaporista Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    3,869
    Likes Received:
    4,391
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    C.Eng
    Location:
    On the 45th!
    Out of interest which do you think is more likely, a derailment on a well maintained p.way with carefully monitored rolling stock, or somebody by mistake opening a door at the wrong place causing an incident? I would suggest that overall the FR policy seems right for the level of risk.
     
  12. Selsig

    Selsig Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2007
    Messages:
    756
    Likes Received:
    261
    Location:
    Coventry, United Kingdom, United Kingdom
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    In my not inconsiderable experience of the FR, it has pretty much always been the case that if you want out of a locked door at an intermediate station, you hang out of the window and try to get the guard's attention. Relying on having made a comment at the embarkation point, when said guard has all of his other duties to do, is going to result in not being let out. Certainly the guard will walk the entire length of the train at Tan Y Bwlch but won't unlock doors unless asked.

    John
     
    michaelh likes this.
  13. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    May 18, 2011
    Messages:
    6,081
    Likes Received:
    2,215
    well the problem with that is that the Guard didn't do that and it was only by hanging a long way out of the window (due to the platform curvature) that I was able to attract anyone's attention. I actually witnessed the train crew disembark and hurry rearwards without so much as a glance forward to where I was hanging out of the window requiring release.
    How are people supposed to know they have to hang out of the window when they don't have your considerable experience?
    With the train delayed and the other train ready for departure the person who eventually released me had to seekout the Guard of the other train who wasn't prepared for anyone transferring from one to t'other (timetabled connection) and was ready to depart, and in fact once I had managed to persuade someone to open a door for me to allow me on to the train , three other people, obviously suffering the same problem I had, joined me in the compartment.
    It was a shambles, but that's not the point of this thread. My opinion is it isn't acceptable to lock people into a train, facetious comments re central locking notwithstanding.
     
  14. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,723
    Likes Received:
    2,077
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    It may be your opinion that it isn't acceptable to lock people on a train. But it is the opinion if those responsible for train and passenger safety on the FfR, and many other lines including the national network, that the risks (likelihood and severity considered) due to doors opening in transit (especially with such tight clearances, etc.) is much higher than the risks of being trapped inside the carriage. The FfR is a very professional outfit with a proper safety system.
    Inconvenience is another matter. It seems that is your case the previous issues which delayed the train led to someone not being as diligent as they should have been to check the full length of the train at TyB. However unless the train(s) was actually moving off, you can't assert you would have been left onboard, someone might have been about to check. Even so, someone messing up and inconveniencing you and others is nothing compared to the proper safe operation of the railway, and - annoying as it must have been - in safety terms you wouldn't have had a leg to stand on if you had complained. In customer service terms, of course, I am sure if you contacted the FfR they would happily apologise.
     
  15. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    May 18, 2011
    Messages:
    6,081
    Likes Received:
    2,215
    the official present did apologise and that was enough for me. The train was ready to start and the guy wouldn't unlock a door for me to board without contacting the Guard which is right and proper. You weren't there, it was a very close run thing and had I not taken action, I would have missed my connection or been over carried.

    As for locking people in, I think that at the very least the Railway should give passengers a reason why the doors are locked rather than simply turning the key, a simple poster in each coach would do it.. The other people in my coach were quite taken aback when they realised the doors were locked
     
  16. richards

    richards Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2008
    Messages:
    4,518
    Likes Received:
    1,694
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    So @Reading General, you still made your connection and the railway apologised. Yet you still chose to make repeated complaints on this thread and threaten them with litigation. Now that you've got it out of your system, can you let it drop pls?
     
  17. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,723
    Likes Received:
    2,077
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Last few times I've travelled on the FfR, it has been explained on the leaflets and travel guide, and a poster in the booking office, and by the guard at Porthmadog as (s)he went up the train.
     
  18. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    May 18, 2011
    Messages:
    6,081
    Likes Received:
    2,215
    what nonsense you do talk. Try reading the thread.

    My purpose is to query the wisdom of locking the doors. People have said this is because of limited clearances, in which case wouldn't bars on the windows be a good move too?
     
    Miff likes this.
  19. Selsig

    Selsig Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2007
    Messages:
    756
    Likes Received:
    261
    Location:
    Coventry, United Kingdom, United Kingdom
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    At one point window bars were fitted on some of the compartment stock. They certainly didn't stop people putting their heads out (demonstrating that if someone wants to be an idiot, they will be, regardless of control measures), but made it significantly more difficult to get them back in. After a couple of near misses they were removed. I don't think the corridor stock has ever had them.

    Regardless of that, the requirement to lock outward opening doors comes from higher authority than the FR itself, and has been reiterated at periodic intervals by multiple inspectors since 1863. It isn't the company's choice to make as to whether the doors are locked. If you want it changed, I'd appeal to the ORR as the current safety authority.

    John
     
  20. DerekTrotter

    DerekTrotter New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2011
    Messages:
    64
    Likes Received:
    10
    Did i dream this or did i see a picture of The Earl on fb the other day?

    If this was real...i thought this loco was moth balled. Is it back out to bolster the running fleet in the summer?
     
    paullad1984 likes this.

Share This Page