Galatea/Alberta

When buildings are being restored, it is common to find multiple layers of paint on walls and woodwork, sometimes going back centuries, so it is sometimes possible to mix new batches of paint to match the originals. Even then you have to hope that the old paint hasn't changed colour over the years. Is that possible for any preserved locos, or would they always have been stripped to bare metal at some time(s) in their lives? For instance, what about the Midland compound in the NRM: does that have its original Midland red under subsequent layers?

Unless you can find some of the original paint or an unambiguous specification for it, you're dependent on people's memories, which can't be entirely reliable, or on colour photographs, which are certainly unreliable where they exist at all.

That said, it does seem that Galatea's present livery has no claim to authenticity, though some may still prefer it to its sister's black.

 

Also described as "revisionist", "acolyte" and so on and so forth if your views don't match up with the populist accepted views. History is about research, informed discussion and a balance in judgment.

Part of that relates to historical liveries - and those who seem to think paint jobs rely on photographs and have nothing to do with chemical analysis are sorely mistaken! The research and the depth of research that went into - for instance - DoH's current paint job was phenomenal, and yes that is the closest you will get to the actual crimson lake livery used by the LMS originally - as the paint made up for it is derived from paint samples of actual LMS crimson lake paint together with the swatch kept at the NRM for painting the streamliners.

The technology exists and has been there for some time in other hobbies (cars/planes etc) so why it seems like such a black art to railway enthusiasts mystifies me.

 

Yes they were.

 

You really need to compare the loco's in the flesh so to speak for a genuine comparison. Looking at printed pictures, shots taken on film or even a modern digital image will all give a different rendition of the red. Another variable is how worn or weathered a livery is, I would suggest as well.

Memory recalls a comparison between BR liveried 46203 being a much lighter shade that similar liveried 46229.

I also remember BR green Kolhapur being a very strange shade of green.

Talking of BR green , another comparison I well remember was at the Carnforth open day & having 70013 & 46115 side by side & SG looking almost khaki green in comparison.

As to Galatea's current paint job, in my opinion it is not an accurate representative on any particular livery so has no comparison BUT for those of us who remember the state it was in when WCRC bought it, back then you would have settled for it running in any colour!!

 

It's a valid point and one often made. I remeber 5699 at Barry sitting on the floor and leaning over at a horrendous angle, restrained by a cable from the dome to the adjacent track. And I remember thinking then, "That will never run again." So all credit to the team at Carnforth - they more than deserve it. But at the end, it has to be painted. It takes no more effort to paint it in a correct livery as in a fictitious one. I'm still trying to see the point.

 

But the history of the loco didn't stop in 1967..the loco is running and is still a usable piece of kit - if it's mounted in a museum then fine, paint it as accurately as possible - you could argue that the class 37s wizzing around the network shouldn't be painted in DRS livery if that were the case.


Remember it's got extra hoses and electronics boxes all over it which are definitely not true to 1960s or earlier...

 

If, as some say, the intention was to repaint her before now, it must not be forgotten that WCRC must be financially challenged to a certain extent, due to the obvious trials they have encountered, so I would expect the "Good few grand" it would cost, have been better spent elsewhere.

 

This is crazy as to why the ONLY red one on the mainline right now has to be made such a controversy.

 

Its ONLY a discussion Mike.

 

Because it's wrong! There was a loco that could legitimately be in red, and everyone wanted it in green! Anyway, it isn't that the 5X is red that's the problem: it's the BR crest and number. Why couldn't it carry the LMS versions? Problems solved!

 

Sad really. The only chance with getting a red LMS jubilee I feel is 5593 once 7029 overhaul is complete.

I loved that shot of 5593, 5690 and 6229 by the way.

 

I thought Mr Meanley has commented before that the wrong shade of green was actually used, nothing to do with undercoat, wear etc.

 

I do have much faith in Bob though. The repaint of Kolhapur into LMS red does look great on her.

 

Sorry, Billy, I hate to say it, but it did. I stood on Edge Hill's Up Slow platform 0n 11th August 1968 and saw 5110 bring back the 15 Guinea Special. We all waited, and I saw her reappear from the tunnels and then vanish, tender first, under the Picton Road bridge. That memory will stay with me forever, along with the thought I had at the time, "That's it, it's all over."

In a way, that was wrong as preservationists stepped in and kept steam going; I was and still am one of them. But in another way, it was right: these engines were meant to do a job of work, moving goods or passengers from A to B. They no longer do that; they don't move goods and the passengers they move is from A back to A again. Their current purpose is entirely for pleasure, a hobby, if you will. The days of making contributions to industry, of taking workers to and from their place of employment, to their holiday destinations, are over. These are no longer the purpose of a journey behind steam; today the purpose is the journey itself, pure and simple.

Steam does not have a place on the national network, but it is tolerated - just - for which we should be truely grateful. But steam will never again by a major power source on Network Rail, even updated to by the 5AT group, even if thoroughly redesigned along turbo-electric lines, power bogies and a cab at each end. But painting it a different colour does nothing to advance its position. With steam, we ARE living in the past, we cannot move it into the future. In which case, we are sticking with steam as close as we can to as it was, not as it could have been, and to me, that includes the paintwork.

 

See post by 2968 and as I said I've met people who think a red rebuilt Scot is correct, there is an educational element to railway preservation and I think it is the duty of the current custodians of these important artefacts to remember that. The other dumbing down currently in favour is giving locomotives names " because the public like to see a name" . How about explaining to the non enthusiast the correct story that the majority of locomotives didn't have names.

 

Might seem a stupid question, but could anyone tell me what classes can accurately appear in red with a BR crest?

 

But that was the end of regular steam traction...The loco's history had an event where it was withdrawn, an event when it was restored and its current working history is to pay for itself to keep itself running...its not an exhibit, its a working machine. The PAST is the loco's service with the LMS and then BR - the PRESENT is the locomotive working for west coast railways. Ignoring the fact it was scrapped and restored its in my mind no different to a class 37 running in BR green, then BR blue, then railfreight livery, then being stuck in a siding for 10 years, then returned to operating conditions and running in WCR or DRS Livery.

There are plenty of locomotives carrying their authentic livery, and also most people with more than a passing interest in steam traction will know and appreciate the liveries a particular locomotive has carried. Almost none of the mainline locomotives are in the same "authentic" condition they were in during their pre-BR or BR working lives due to the amount of parts replace and electronics etc added to make them network rail compatible.

In this case the owner has chosen BR maroon because he likes the colour...I have no doubt it will be painted BR green at some point in the future, but it looks pretty good next to the maroon coaches.

I guess it comes down to the question - did history of a loco stop in 1968 (the scrapyard) or does it carry on if the loco was restored?

 

Duchesses or Princesses and to be really accurate only certain members of each class and no it's not a stupid question if you don't know the answer.

 

Never mind DRS 37s, WCRC have a load of locos - 33s, 37s, 47s, etc - that are in the same position as 45699, 46115, 44932. Privately owned by a TOC after withdrawal from normal service. No one moans they're painted in WCRC livery (just that it's a dull colour and usually filthy!). Part of me actually preferred 60163 when it had www.a1steam.com on the tender! They're privately owned locos, they can be painted whatever colour the owner wishes.

 

If only! I recall the vitriol - and much worse - aimed at the 6201 people, much of it on this forum, because they would not paint Lizzie in BR green. 'The owner can paint it whatever colour he likes' applies only when the colour is what the poster wants!

Anyway, I'm starting a movement to have the Royal Navy paint HMS Victory in grey!