How far without taking water?

I just posted this on the Tornado Border Raider thread, and thought it might make a worthwhile subject on its own.

"...........Have heard there was a lot of water left in the tender after the 90 mile run from Preston.

I wonder if anyone does comparative water calculations these days? Would be interesting to know what some of these main line locos need for a specific distance. I know that Clan Line's run to Salisbury in May saw only 500 galls left at Salisbury, (83.7 miles). Albeit with a very heavy load and a couple of stops.

But reading through some old logs on the Railway Performance Society web site, (this part for members only), I found a Schools class run from Bournemouth to Waterloo in circa 120 mins for the 108 miles. 415 tons and I couldn't see that it had stopped anywhere! That is some going for a small 4-4-0! .............."

Just checked that Schools run, (30929) and it was just over 122 minutes actual, and a net time of 114½ minutes.

Another log shows 30931 on 345 tons doing Bournemouth - Waterloo in 119 minutes, and a net time of 108 minutes.

My longest with a Merchant Navy was in February 1965 with 35022 on 10 for 365 tons. Waterloo- Yeovil Jctn, 122.6 miles in 132¾ mins, net time circa 117 mins. "Spot" King driving, chosen as he was felt to be a good man to do that distance without a water stop. He ran fast down hill, (ie using gravity rather than much steam), and let the loco go gently over the hills. i.e circa 90 mph through Andover, but down to 58 over Grateley, (the down ACE with 11 on would often go over Grateley summit at around 70 mph after 90 mph, (or more!), at Andover).

Yes of course, these days things are different. A good reserve must be planned for as a loco can't just stop at the next station with a water column to top up!

But I wonder if anyone else has tales of long distances without water stops. Old days or current era.

 

Water troughs, perchance? Engines can then take on water while still travelling at high speed...

Dom

 

Quite right!

But the reminder was good. So I guess it's how far without water troughs.

There were plans for water troughs on the SR, (I've forgotten where now), but they were never installed. Someone here will remember where they were planned.

 

As far as SR was concerned I believe all down trains took water at Southampton but in information discovered during enquiries into the Green Arrow fiasco on the S&C when it ran out of water just short of the Garsdale water stop Railtrack ( as it was then ) were quoted as saying that they calculated 72 miles for a 4000 gallon tender.

On the assumption that this is a worst case scenario including poor enginemanship then I - like KentYeti - would be interested in knowing how far a good engineman can get his tenderful. On a related note the report by Bob Meanley in the latest Steam Railway suggests that the up train did not need the extra water in the modified GUV and therefore the run was accoomplished on one tender full; whether there was enough left to reach a water supply for replenishment wasn't mentioned ! Nonetheless a good indication of the footplate expertise which exists and congratulations to those involved for a "job well done".

 

Not all down trains stopped at Southampton Fred! But you've got to go back a long time to find one that didn't. Just looked at a 1937 log of a Schools Class running fast from Waterloo to Bournemouth in 114 minutes.

Both the up and down fast services were the pre war "Bournemouth Limited". About which I knew very little indeed until I stumbled across these logs. They ran non stop Bournemouth to London and vice versa.

The logs are in Railway Magazine articles.

I was aware of an up fast train on a summer Saturdays. My 1964 timetable shows the 8.54 Wareham called at Bournemouth at 10.00 and ran fast to Waterloo at 12.14. The corresponding down working, the 09.15 ex Waterloo did have a stop at Southampton. I remember at the time that the word was, (obviously!), that the up working had to be booked for a pacific with the larger tender.

The Schools Class had a 4,000 gallon tender.

 

It isn't the time factor that counts - but the distances.

On the Bournemouth route the distances from Waterloo are Southampton 79.75 and Bournemouth 108. I would imagine that a non-stop run would have no problem with 4000 gallons BUT a train making additional stops in the New Forest would be on the brink hence the rationale that a water stop be taken at Southampton. IIRC all train going beyond Bournemouth to Weymouth ( 142 miles from Waterloo ) often changed locomotives at Bournemouth hence non-stoppers might not need the Southampton water stop; if not then water would have been taken at Southampton.

 

Time factor can apply to some extent these days Fred. Like that long drawn out run around the houses from Waterloo to Woking, when the 07.17 path isn't being used.

I would have thought a 4,000 gallon tender was pushing a Schools with 415t close to the limit. Especially as it ran quite hard. I suspect that was an overload for that train but the steam crew being a steam crew must have accepted the challenge.

I only did it once non stop. 3rd June 1967 with 35030 on a railtour. Driver Bill Sansom from Bournemouth played with a lightweight 8 car train and 35030. Did it in just under 120 minutes but with a lot of checks. Net time circa 100 minutes for the 108 miles. We were booked to stop at Southampton on the return with 35007, (79.25 miles). Not really sure why. Maybe the tour was trying to replicate an up fast train, and a down 2 hour express with the booked Soton stop. Too long ago to remember now!

 

Bryan,

I think the trip you are referring to above was the Dorset Limited on Saturday 3rd June 1967. I was on that one that day and I remember logging the times myslef but they have sadly gone missing over many years and moves. Just refreshed memory of that from Six Bells Junction, but don't remember now a pilot from Weymouth to Bournemouth in the morning. I think I caught the train at Poole but even that is not clear now! I do remember 35030 succumbing to a hot box on arrival at Waterloo and some very enthusiastic driving on the way back from a number of checks. Was an enjoyable day

DH

 

I think 35005 holds the current preservation record along the the North Wales coast in the late 90's although Riley's 45407 put in an excellent run over the S&C a few years ago, it had (or maybe borrowed?) new injectors which helped considerably. Interesting to note in the lastest SR Bob Meanley's account of the Bristolian run with 5043 whereby on the return she only used 2500 gallons of water and 2 tons of coal rendering the water carrier unnecessary! Shows what can be done when a loco in tip top condition and hot is worked lightly but quickly.

 

For the current era, I was most surprised at Scunthorpe Steel Works last Summer. A Peckett 0-6-0 (poss 0-4-0) ST worked our train around the site for three hours and only took on water whilst we looked round the shed & gift shop. On many preserved lines water is taken at a much more frequent interval; ie the J15 having worked from Sherringham will take on water at Weybourne. That's only a 15 minute journey, but is uphill most of the way.
Water consumption is governed by many factors; gradiant, load, driving techniques and so forth.

 

Really? It has big tanks so we usually fill her up every other trip at Sheringham. I have only used the weybourne watercrane at galas when that is where the loco is timetabled to take water and on santa specials. The crane is fairly pants so only used when absolutely neccessary.