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IOM Pender at MOSI

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Allan Thomson, Nov 23, 2011.

  1. Allan Thomson

    Allan Thomson New Member

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    Maybe the could repair and return our Beyer to us?... It was only on Loan when they decided to sectionalise it....
     
  2. 504

    504 New Member

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    Re: Class 02 and 06 at Liverpool Road

    sectioned in 1980s well before the museum was open. was done with IOM gov approval. many other items that mosi had from IOM have been returned to IOM.
     
  3. Anthony Coulls

    Anthony Coulls Well-Known Member

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    Re: Class 02 and 06 at Liverpool Road

    Yes, but if you read the IoMSRSA forum, the truth doen't matter - and people on forums believe what they want to, despite the facts pointing the other way. It's all a conspiracy you see, us museum people are nasty and want to chop engines up - allegedly.
     
  4. Allan Thomson

    Allan Thomson New Member

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    Re: Class 02 and 06 at Liverpool Road

    Please provide the evidence that the Pender was sectionalised with IOM Govt approval -it's suprising that Boyd didn't mention this?....
    The IoM Government agreed to loan Pender to MOSI on condition that it wasn't run (Don't MOSI claim that she 'run's today with the aid of an Electrical Motor), and this it was used to supply publicity to the IoM (the boards in the museum do very little to do this, and the engine has no markings to indicate that she's an IOMRly locomotive). To have sold her off Island would have been against legislation which Tynwald passed themselves in the 1970's. Therefore she belongs to the Isle of Man.

    Well before the museum opened - what when MOSI existed in temporary accomodation in 1969?... And if the Museum didn't exist at that time as you claim, don't you think it was highly irresponsible to section someone elses property on the off chance that you might want to exhibit in that form in the future?...

    As for conspiracy theory, no but it is plain to see that the Rev Dr Richard Hills himself states that he got his hands on the locomotive because one of his cousins was an MHK in the House of Key's....

    Could you elabourate on the other items which have been returned to the Island?
     
  5. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Guest

    Re: Class 02 and 06 at Liverpool Road

    Excuse me missing something, but the IOM engine has been in Manchester since, when, 1980 at least ... With a big hole in the boiler the entire time.
    At last count it's the end of 2011..,

    Has this suddenly just been discovered after a minimum of 31 years on public display ?...

    I'm puzzled.

    Has no one from the IOM been to Manchester since 1980 ?

    I'm struggling to find out "why" after 31 years this is suddenly news worthy ?
    Is there any facts around this story... Has something happened ?
    Or us it just trolling about to see what sticks ?

    What next ?
    Is some driver from Reddish going to turn up and ask what happened to the other half of 76039, as it's needed for a train ?
     
  6. Allan Thomson

    Allan Thomson New Member

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    Re: Class 02 and 06 at Liverpool Road

    It has long been a bone of contention on the Island amongst many IoM based enthusiasts. The internet purely gives a place to voice these views. I am amazed that it hasn't come to the attention of MOSI or anyone involved in the preservation world sooner.
     
  7. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Guest

    Re: Class 02 and 06 at Liverpool Road

    There's several others still on the island in far worse nick than this, according to Wikipedia one was cut up 3 years after this one left ?

    I'm still trying to understand the "why now" aspect of this news item.?
     
  8. Allan Thomson

    Allan Thomson New Member

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    Re: Class 02 and 06 at Liverpool Road

    No2 Derby which was dismantled for spare parts was scrapped yes - however that was in bits and so therefore presented an excuse for the management at that time to dispose of the frames, tanks and cabs for it - perhaps this would have been a better candidate for producing some sort of sectionalised exhibit with life expired parts.
     
  9. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Guest

    Re: Class 02 and 06 at Liverpool Road

    Maybe but that was 1980 and it's now 2011. How many people would care if a 142 was sent to Douglas and turned into a Leylan National bus... But then in year 2042 someone turns up on the net and says "oi what you done to that pacer we lent you back In 2011 when we were planning to scrap em ?"

    I suppose it's the same argument about that pile of stones in London the Greeks get eat up about, despite the Turks wanting to build roads out of them at the time, when some mad english bloke turned up and offered to pay money for some Greek dirt that no one wanted.?. 200 years later it's got value and everyone regrets missing the opportunity of the time and refuses to recognise that it's value only exists due to the one who's kept it all that time to begin with, not the one who threw it away and complains they don't have it any more.
     
  10. Allan Thomson

    Allan Thomson New Member

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    Re: Class 02 and 06 at Liverpool Road

    Please give any proof that Pender was to be scrapped?

    Given that all of the IOMRly locomotives with the exception of Derby survive on the Island - with the obvious exception of Pender which is the only IOMRly Beyer Peacock which has been shipped off Island then how can you say that Pender would be singled out for scrapping after No2 Derby?...

    And yes I agree the Elgin Marbles should be returned provided there's a safe home.

    Let's face it beyond being a sectionalised exhibit for the "edukation of local skool kidz" in Manchester (which could be rebuilt to run on the IOMRly given the funds) and a product of a former manufacturing business Pender has nothing to do with Manchester, but a far more considerable and important history on the Isle of Man. MOSI do very little to acknowledge the IOMRly in it's "Pender" Railways pantomime.
     
  11. Allan Thomson

    Allan Thomson New Member

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    Re: Class 02 and 06 at Liverpool Road

    Actually with regard to recognising the value of such assets at the time - there was a society set up in the Island at that time which did recognise the value of the assets, but which did not enjoy good relations with the management of the railways and therefore would not have been in a position to intervene to prevent the lending of Pender off Island.

    Furthermore Pender was recognised as a significant asset during the Ailsa Era (along with many of her sisters) because she was cosmetically restored for exhibition and was exhibited regularily during that period.
     
  12. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Guest

    Re: Class 02 and 06 at Liverpool Road

    Quite the opposite, I challenge you to prove that Pender would have been operational in the last 31 years had it not gone to Manchester... It was quite obviously spare, otherwise it wouldn't have been sent... Similarly, why would any CME despatch his finest abroad and keep the worst at home, at a time when there was plans that saw at least one cut up.


    30 odd years ago I was quite proud to be one of those Skool kidz who learned about how a steam locomotive worked back in 1980 after looking at it and having someone there showing me how it worked.. And being one of the very first people to drive the simulator of the class 76..
    Hence my interest in this thread right now...
    Had it not have been done, had someone not got me interested, I may have been squabbling with some Chav on a drug thread... Or maybe married to a brunette royal princess..debating croquet instead.

    But it didn't, I didn't, and we can only imagine a parralell universe...
    Hence back to the same question...


    Why now, to bring this up?


    Ps ... Where was it built...again ?... It, like the garratt, the pakistan railways locomotive were all built a handful of miles away..so it has some historic link, it didn't just fall off the back of a sea container and get attacked by local youths.
     
  13. Anthony Coulls

    Anthony Coulls Well-Known Member

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    Re: Class 02 and 06 at Liverpool Road

    I'd sooner it was at MoSI than lying at the back of Douglas carriage shed or subject to some long running and bitter dispute. Personally I would argue for a Manx Peacock in the National Collection as an example of narrow gauge common carrier motive power.
     
  14. Allan Thomson

    Allan Thomson New Member

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    Re: Class 02 and 06 at Liverpool Road

    Well ask MOSI to send Pender up to York then....

    There's actually only two locomotives laying at the back of Douglas Carriage Shed - the rest are on the lines or in the running sheds or in the museum

    Actually on that subject but why on earth should a Manx Locomotive belong in an English National Collection???....
     
  15. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Guest

    Re: Class 02 and 06 at Liverpool Road

    I've reached my conclusion I was referring to in post 19,
    3rd line from the bottom.
     
  16. Anthony Coulls

    Anthony Coulls Well-Known Member

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    Re: Class 02 and 06 at Liverpool Road

    In that case why do we display a Scottish and Welsh locomotive?

    Are you not proud to share Manx railway heritage with those who might not have the chance to come and see it on home soil?

    I very much enjoyed my so far only visit to Man back in 1998 and hope to get there again, but in the meantime can enjoy a Manx Peacock celebrating the heritage of its birthplace.
     
  17. Allan Thomson

    Allan Thomson New Member

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    Re: Class 02 and 06 at Liverpool Road

    No not at all, I would say that there's no reason that anyone should be able to enjoy Manx Railway heritage anywhere but the Isle of Man. Do you really think seeing a gutted carcase run with an electric motor anywhere compares to actually riding behind a real live steaming BeyerPeacock running along a line that it's ran along since 1874. Let's face it that the IOM is the only place where you can ride behind a 3ft 2-4-0 Beyer Peacock Tank from the 19thC.

    We're a seperate country in our own right, not part of the United Kingdom (ergo the Scotland and Wales arguement doesn't apply either). Perhaps this bypassed you on the visit?

    I guess that you haven't been there since 1998 shows as there's a lot has changed on the railway since. Whilst some of it has maybe not been for the better, the railway at least still has a far more stable future than it had in the 1980's.
     
  18. Allan Thomson

    Allan Thomson New Member

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    Re: Class 02 and 06 at Liverpool Road

    Pender wasn't any more spare than any other engine. Let's face it some comover came over and scrounged an asset and got it on the strength that one of his Cousins was an MHK (that's how things work on the IOM)...

    As for proof that it would have run - well it's senior sister No1 Sutherland returned to steam in 1998 and ran for three years. Pender's Younger Sister No4 Loch has been a regular runner for years and years and that was only built a year after the initial Trio. No 5 Mona was still in condition that with a new boiler and some work it could have been restored to service, similarily with No 6 Peveril - before the asbestos issue which is what lead to Mona and No9 Douglas being put in a plastic tent at the back of the carriage shed..

    And if you knew the IOMRly properly you'd know there's no such thing as "spare loco's" simply those which are in service, and those which require maintenance. Generally although there's a typical stable locomotives get rotated every so often to allow work to take place on other engines.

    As for plans to scrap loco's it was more a case of there was a clear out of surplus stuff to raise funds, and a set of frames belonging to No2 Derby which had been dismantled many years before for spares were cut up in addition to the Tanks and Cabs of it and No7 Tynwald. However Tynwald's frames survive today (albeit that they are technically in private ownership) despite having been damaged in an accident - so therefore if they stayed around then it's extremely unlikely that Pender would have been scrapped given the reaction to the massive scrap drives which went on in the late 70's and early 80's/
     
  19. meeee

    meeee Member

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    Re: Class 02 and 06 at Liverpool Road

    Given the fact that a lot of the bits that were sectioned on Pender have been completely replaced on the working IoM locos over the years. The sectioning would probably not precluded a return to steam with the right amount of money. You already stated Mona would need a new boiler, well so does Pender. Apart from one cylinder the chassis is largely intact. Given that 5,6,7,9,14, and 16 are all out of use on the island with little prospect of running again. Why do you need another taking up valuable space not on display? Also if you want it to advertise the fact it is an IoM loco why not approach the museum, offer to raise some money for more info to be displayed about it. I'm sure they would be more than willing for you to help.

    Personally a Manx peacock in the National Collection sounds like a good idea to me too, considering that lack of NG stuff in the collection it would be a great asset. Nobody said it had to be at York though.

    P.S. Just because Boyd didn't mention something doesn't mean it didn't happen. I know from his works on the Festiniog that a lot of what he writes is an educated best guess based on the limited info he had at the time. It is not gospel.
     
  20. DJH

    DJH Member

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    Re: Class 02 and 06 at Liverpool Road

    To clarify the history of MoSI please take a quick look at the history here:

    About Us | History of MOSI | MOSI

    Personally I'd rather Pender stayed where it was. A manchester built engine back in its birth place and seen by over 600,000 people a year.

    Back on topic it will be good to see the new arrivals when I'm next guarding there.

    Kind Regards

    Duncan
     

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