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Jacobite 2024

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by alastair, Nov 29, 2023.

  1. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I thought they did not have enough for a full rake now, hence the Mk2 most trips.
    Also if WCRC were no longer in the picture it does not really fit with their mainly First and Dining ethos either.
     
  2. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Is it a huge money spinner though?
     
  3. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    Martin, how can you "see" WCR not being able to run the service next year? What information is this based on? They are at present running a single train 7 days a week which will no doubt be the minimum service they will run next year.
     
  4. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

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    Is it a completely foregone conclusion that the Track Access Agreement expiring this autumn will be renewed?

    https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/om/s18-wcrc-directed-contract.pdf
     
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  5. acorb

    acorb Part of the furniture

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    It should be a foregone conclusion, yes, providing West Coast abide by the terms of the contract renewal. Others can decide if this is a potential issue or not.
    But in context, West Coast continue to operate across the country on a wide variety of different work, many of which is unmentioned on this forum, their only current issue is rolling stock compliance which is of particular problem to this service.
     
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  6. acorb

    acorb Part of the furniture

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    Their yearly accounts would suggest so, as would their plans this year to try and introduce a third service, until more recent issues got in the way.
     
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  7. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    The Jacobite is one of the subjects discussed in the latest Green Signals:
     
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  8. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    What about loco availability? at the moment, the only stock WC can use is the air braked mk2 rakes, and until it decides to start modifying the mk1's it only has 4 , possibly 5 air fitted locos, and 4 of those it would have to hire in, only Tangmere is owned by them, then there is the rest of the program of tours running at the same time, there is no cover, should a loco need washout etc to do more than one trip a day, the only other option is to use Deisel power, and then, won't that effect the popularity of the service? next year, will West Coast have the stock, and engines, Rileys 5's will have worked a lot more this year, and could need more down time for maintenance The obvious answer is that some of West coasts loco fleet will need to be fitted with air braking,, so that it can operate its winter/ spring tours, and the mk1's need to start to be fitted with CDL, otherwise its very possible that next year, the tour program will be somewhat reduced
     
  9. jonathonag

    jonathonag Well-Known Member

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    44871 may have gotten a head start on mileage accumulation for this year, and as the summer programme increases, it may continue to do so..

    However, 45212 and 45407 will be accumulating less currently due to only the morning Jacobite service operating. That's 588 miles per week less since the start of May. Things may be equalled due to the longer trips that 44871 is operating, plus the Riley 'Great Britain', but I can't see that the engines are effectively operating over their usual mileage as a collective unless the afternoon train started this summer.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 21, 2024
  10. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

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    The Jacobite has been a Riley's only operation for several years so not sure what will change, apart from as noted above their mileages on it are actually less than previous years at the moment, the only other locomotive which has been a Jacobite regular is 62005 (which coincidentally was photographed having a boiler test fitted at Carnforth the other day) what the braking situation is with that going forward dog only knows, but the fact that NELPG seem to be pressing on with overhaul suggests that they feel it will have work somewhere.

    As for the wider market, WCR don't seem to be showing any inclination of air braking their fleet (albeit who knows what is going on behind the scenes in Carnforth, they will likley have a fair few fitters etc who would normally be maintaining steam locomotives and carriages in a normal year who are potentially twiddling their thumbs at the moment so one wonders what they are up to), there are air braked loco's such as 60007 and 71000 who possibly could have picked up some of the slack in England but as they have tied their steeds to LSL that's probably not an option for them?
     
  11. 5944

    5944 Resident of Nat Pres

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    60007 is available (when not booked for LSL work) but no-one has requested it.
     
  12. Will RL

    Will RL Member

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    Wouldn’t say that’s true…
     
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  13. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    Fitting equipment to work air braked trains doesn’t solve the problem, it’s the lack of suitable rolling stock that’s preventing the afternoon Jacobite form working, they could just get by with two engines, perhaps sending 4871 up there when one of the others is on boiler washout. Hopefully the effort at Carnforth is concentrated on fitting CDL but who knows.
     
  14. Walker

    Walker New Member

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    So, to hire 60007 you have to request it through LSL so of course it’s never going to be available to a rival, no matter what the spin is.
     
  15. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    No that’s not true, the owning group make the decision as I understand it.
     
  16. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

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    But you would need to find a TOC and you would need to find some coaches. Isn't it fair to say that it would be a lot easier done via LSL than via any alternative route?
     
  17. Walker

    Walker New Member

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    Yeah they have written online that mainline hire requests go via LSL
     
  18. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Yes I have seen their accounts, but you will have to show where it says how much of that comes from what you obviously perceive as the Jacobite "money tree".
    There is more to the WCRC than the Jacobite.
    I thought about the prices from last year on the Jacobite were just under £50 I believe for a 82 mile round trip. Yet the NYMR (and yes I accept they maintain their own infrastructure as well) were charging around £40 from memory for a 48 mile round trip (Whitby). The NYMR were obviously not "making a packet" or else there would have been no need for an appeal. Train lengths are similar I believe and there must be significant costs on a mainline operation, not least hiring in three locos.
    I have no idea of what the actual costs or profit margins are nor I suspect do you, after all WCRC normally only release what they are required to do by law.
    Add to that (and whilst I believe all things being equal they should CDL enough Mk1's) I have no idea on what life they perceive for Mk1's on the network and if the ROI on that investment is perceived as worthwhile. I suspect to operate the Jacobite alone 3 or 4 sets of coaches would need to be modified as I understand at least one set comes back for tyre turning during the year. So I reckon maybe in the £600 - £8ook range they would have the use of those for other tours, there own and other promoters, but maybe that is not where the owner wants to spend his money.
    A lot of people seem to regard WCRC as some sort of public company who have to keep shareholders and the public happy, when in fact they a mainly owned by one individual, who like most companies that are in that position act mainly to the owners wishes. I spent most of my Procurement career dealing with a fair few of them, and often those wishes may not seem logical to the outsider.
    The thing that really annoys me, especially mainly on other forums, is reading folks at TOC's complaining about cancellations on the Jacobite, or the second service not running, when those same people find it perfectly acceptable to create numerous ongoing cancellations and reduced services for months through strike action or overtime bans that impact far more passengers than are ever carried on the Jacobite.
     
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  19. acorb

    acorb Part of the furniture

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    This is a service that is booked up for months in advance and for which West Coast were seeking a path for a third train at the end of last season, to suggest it might not be profitable is daft. If it isn't making a good chunk of money then there is something seriously wrong with the pricing & /or business model. Most heritage railways would kill for 95%+ loading and I believe tickets now start at over £60 before 1st class upgrades, dining options and secondary selling.
    Regards coaching stock, West Coast should be succession planning to either remodel their Mark 1s or procure alternatives. It's called investing in your assets and all businesses have to do it. Whilst the accounts may not show everything, they do suggest sufficient surplus to have undertaken the necessary CDL work over a period of time. A quick calculation of potential revenue taken from a normal season on the Jacobite would suggest CDL fitment would be recouped in just a few months. This suggests the refusal to fit isn't necessarily a business decision.
     
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  20. acorb

    acorb Part of the furniture

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    Another question, how much money have West Coast spent on legal action that could have been spent on CDL?
    Is being forced to run just one train profitable?
     
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