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Latest pre grouping liveries

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by andrewshimmin, Aug 22, 2022.

  1. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I’ve seen a photo sometime ago of 4498/ 60007 with all its bits stenciled up before it was overhauled at Crewe in 1966/7 could this possibly be a LM thing?
     
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  2. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I suggest you read Vulcan 607 by Rowland White regarding the state of the Vulcans that were considered for the Black Buck ops!
    From personal experience 20 odd years ago there was no such thing as a standard Linde 350 fork truck, transmission, masts, gearing, engines, control, you name it, it was never standard, it may have started off as standard, but with however many engineers and depots around the country, there was always something that had to be made to fit somewhere!
    Even something like an extra shim on a mast.
    There’s standardisation but then there’s also how machines can be treated!
     
  3. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    Returning to my original points:

    - As far as I know the L&Y railmotor photo shared above is the only genuine colour photograph of a pre grouping locomotive* - anyone prove me wrong?

    - There are (a few!) colour photographs of Big Four from as early as the mid 1930s - but none of these show locos still in pre grouping livery.

    - Columbine, preserved well before grouping, may have retained original LNWR livery as late as the sixties.

    - The situation with GWR locos is a big less clear as the livery didn't change until well after grouping (the same might have happened with the odd Midland loco I suppose)

    - We don't think there's any pre grouping livery surviving now (hardly surprising).

    Is that a fair summary?

    *The loco portion was fully detachable from the carriage portion and could run separately so it's a loco .


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  4. Cartman

    Cartman Well-Known Member

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    Do plain black ones which just got the lettering and numbers changed count?
     
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  5. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    You may well be correct, so far as the biggest island goes. Over on the next biggest, there was an odd little 5'-3" gauge outfit, the Dundalk, Newry & Greenore Railway, which employed a half dozen 0-6-0st locos built at Crewe to the design of J. Ramsbottom. Aside from No.5, wdn 1928, these served to the bitter end.

    Opened in 1873, the LNWR (who, as principal investor, originally had boat trains in mind) took over completely, bequeathing the line to first the LMS (though oddly it was NOT included in their ex-Midland NCC offshoot, with which it shared neither any physical proximity nor stock). It actually became part of BR in 1948, being the only part which ran outside the UK (!) though operations had been contracted out to the GNRI since 1933, which company seem always to have operated it as a discrete entity. I've no image of a GNRI loco on the line. It closed at the end of 1951, whence a few carriages found their way to ex-NCC lines.

    Locos and carriages all carried a copy of LNWR livery throughout their lives. Loco No.1 was earmarked for preservation, but somehow eluded posterity. More remarkably, 4w carriage No.1 survives at Cultra, now looking a sight more resplendent in it's faux-LNWR finery than in any photo I have of it! A colour shot in my library of a DN&G train crossing the GNRI mainline at Dundalk (at about 80°) is rather faded, but you can make the livery out.

    There you go .... BR owned, if at arms' length and on Irish BG!
     
  6. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    Yes that was my "cheat" answer as mentioned in post #4.
    There are photos of JT tanks on the DNGR in the latter period, and Colour Rail has three or four colour photographs. There's also a colour cine reel.

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  7. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Ooh .... never seen those images (perchance got ISBN please?). Thanks Andrew. The neatly proportioned JT is one of my favourite small locos from anywhere (and was from the first time I saw one) and I'm beyond merely happy one survives at Cultra .... ironically, last I saw, displayed just ahead of the DN&GR carriage.

    Of all the passenger carrying Irish BG lines, the DN&G is the one I've least info on. I've probably got more photos just the quayside lines at Derry!
     
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  8. gwralatea

    gwralatea Member

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    Depends how we're counting - pre-grouping. There is, because I've seen it in a book, precisely one genuine colour photograph of a locomotive in M&GN livery. From IIRC some time in the 1930s. But that is obviously post 1923 though.
     
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  9. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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    Not the colour pictures that Andrew referred to above, but here are a few of JT tanks on the DNGR:

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/39146248092
    https://transportsofdelight.smugmug...WAYS/DUNDALK-NEWRY-GREENORE-RAILWAY/i-DsH5vR7
    https://transportsofdelight.smugmug...WAYS/DUNDALK-NEWRY-GREENORE-RAILWAY/i-764nvR4
    https://transportsofdelight.smugmug...WAYS/DUNDALK-NEWRY-GREENORE-RAILWAY/i-trpTFX8
    https://transportsofdelight.smugmug...WAYS/DUNDALK-NEWRY-GREENORE-RAILWAY/i-qmS4FWG
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/51384726750
     
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  10. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Superb photos Keith. Had only ever seen one of those images before, so very much appreciated. Looking at a couple of those, one of those idle 'what if ... ?' questions crossed my mind.

    Could you imagine how things might've developed had the LNWR's ambitions for steamer services been realised? OK, so none of the Irish Sea ports are Dover or Felixstowe, but perhaps 'Larne busy' mightn't have been overambitious.

    The DG&N was in good company though. Ports served by the B&CDR never really saw the levels of traffic once hoped for either.
     
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  11. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Must try harder to keep up!
     
  12. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that's right! It's an Ivatt goods loco in M&GN black as far as I remember? In "Big Four in Colour" by Jenkinson.

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  13. gwralatea

    gwralatea Member

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    In my head it's the dark brown livery rather than black? I think we're talking about the same picture though. Ivatt 0-6-0 goods tender locomotive. I remember seeing it in the Ian Allan paperback on the M&GN in the 1990s.
     
  14. Copper-capped

    Copper-capped Well-Known Member

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    How about postcard images? Although I imagine that the chance of the colours being “like for like” would be zero.
     
  15. weltrol

    weltrol Part of the furniture Friend

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    There is also the model of the Cambrian 4-4-0 last seen at Penrhyn Castle. I believe it was built and painted at Oswestry Works for the boardroom.
     
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  16. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    In the same vein is the model of Stroudley Lyons class “Como” in Brighton Museum, often held as the closest we will get to Stroudley livery painted by someone with first-hand knowledge.

    https://www.brightontoymuseum.co.uk/index/Como_locomotive_LBSCR_308_(Dr_J_Bradbury_Winter)

    When I last saw it, some years ago, it was in a dark part of the museum, and not easy to photograph:

    633BE2E9-3176-4177-9B0A-87095005F6BC.jpeg

    Tom
     
  17. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    It's a lovely model. I've not been into town for yonks, but if it's still in the museum behind Prinny's Beach Hut, I can say the lighting, designed so as not to cause colours to fade, gives a very odd look to pretty much everything.

    Many moons ago, by arrangement, a curator removed their (pretty substantial) model of a Brighton Corporation Tramcar from it's case to permit me to photograph it and I can tell you the difference between the colours as seen in that case, compared with how it looked under a plain glass skylight, was very noticeable.

    Given how early Gladstone passed into preservation, do we know how accurate the current gamboge livery is? I'd imagine it's had at least a couple of repaints since 1928.
     
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  18. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    “In the museum behind prinny’s beach hut” - yes, that’s the one! :).

    I did wonder about Gladstone, but I suspect it has been repainted during its time in preservation. That does rather mark the importance of the point, much derided, about locos where people note that the livery or overhaul was applied by a specific works. Even if the paint fades or darkens, there may be subtle details lost in a repaint. At the very least, the paint history should be recorded (and made known) so that if, for example, you look at “Gladstone”, it is clear whether you are looking at paint applied in 1928, or 1960, or 1982 etc.

    Tom
     
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  19. dan.lank

    dan.lank Member

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    On that subject, it would be interesting to know what original paint lurks behind the layers on existing locos! I don’t know what works practice was - but I’m assuming just flatting back and painting over. (Ignoring the A4 from across the pond that was shot blasted…)

    I believe there were some paint samples retrieved from the original tender frame that’s being reused for Beachy Head - but I’m assuming that would be a deep red on frames rather than IEG…


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  20. marshall5

    marshall5 Well-Known Member

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    I visited the 'old' York museum many times in the 60's /early 70's and the locos certainly didn't appear to have been repainted since they were installed. The paint was often crazed and darkened by the many applications of cleaning oil. Just this week I found a close up photo (1963) of Columbine's cab and the LNWR lining was almost invisible due to this darkening. Gladstone's paint didn't seem as darkened or degraded as the others but ISTR that it was repainted after moving to the new NRM. The tender in the corner of the photo below is GNR No.1's and shows the typical condition of the paintwork. I would be very surprised if the NRM doesn't have a detailed record of the repaints.
    Ray. 04-71-04 York Railway Museum Dec 1971.jpg 04-71-03 York Railway Museum Dec 1971.jpg
     

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