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Liverpool Road and the Ordsall Curve.

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Guest, Mar 23, 2011.

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  1. Guest

    Guest Part of the furniture Account Suspended

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    G O has given the go ahead for the Ordsal - Castlefield Curve

    This may mean the end of Liverpool Road's main line connection after 180 years -

    Fight Time folks??

    As to the decision - Crazy - but hard sell by Network Rail and their consultants has won the day.

    The Ardwick curve went into the too difficult box because there is a major signalling cubicle on the viaduct stub at Blind Lane - yes - really!!!

    Take that obstacle out and replace the Blind Lane and Ashton Old Road spans and Voila!!! - Victoria and Piccadilly connected - with the stadium in between so a station could have been built there too.

    Stalybridge and Huddersfield available via Guide Bridge or Phillips Park, and Rochdale and Bradford available via Phillips Park and Brewery.

    Platforms A - D on the north side of the Piccadilly train shed and Robert is your mother's brother.

    Ah - but this way think of all that loverly CPO work for the lawyers and surveyors too! to late for me though!
     
    Guest, Mar 23, 2011
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  2. Christopher125

    Christopher125 Part of the furniture

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    Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

    Fight what? Its a shame that MOSI will lose much of their running line but its a small price to pay. No offence Frank, but i suspect your rather OTT analysis of the proposal and its alternatives is perhaps a little simplistic...

    Chris
     
    Christopher125, Mar 23, 2011
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  3. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

    Totally agree with Frank on this. Just one little delay in the now very busy section between Piccadilly and Castlefield Junction will throw train pathing into chaos.
     
    std tank, Mar 23, 2011
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  4. paullad1984

    paullad1984 Member

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    Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

    Must say i agree with frank too.
     
    paullad1984, Mar 23, 2011
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  5. 504

    504 New Member

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    Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

    let see?
    the 1st public railway in the world
    the site of the oldies railway station in the world
    stephensons irwell bridge (grade 1 listed)
    2/3 of MOSI running line with Light Railway Order
    planned expansion of the railway on the site when granada tv move out

    ALL TO GO????
     
    504, Mar 23, 2011
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  6. DJH

    DJH Member

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    DJH, Mar 23, 2011
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  7. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

    Whilst I am of the opinion that the Network Rail scheme is ridiculous I have to criticise MOSI for not maintaining the Grade 1 bridge in a way that befits its status. Part of it is like a jungle.
     
    std tank, Mar 23, 2011
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  8. David Ward

    David Ward Well-Known Member

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    Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

    That is because land beyond Water Street Bridge is not actually owned by MOSI.
     
    David Ward, Mar 23, 2011
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  9. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

    Who owns it then? Don't tell me the answer is Network Rail. They would have to apply to both Manchester and Salford Councils for listed building consent.
     
    std tank, Mar 23, 2011
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  10. daveannjon

    daveannjon Well-Known Member

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    Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

    Obviously lots of advantages to the Ardwick route but airport trains would still have to cross the station throat, via Ordsall they don't. Also trains from Bradford would miss out Victoria if they turned left at Brewery Jc.
    I imagine George Stephenson would have been totally unsentimental about his work being destroyed if it led to a better railway system.
    Dave
     
    daveannjon, Mar 23, 2011
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  11. Sheff

    Sheff Resident of Nat Pres

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    Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

    Any one got a link to these plans and the alternatives, for us not residing in the NW plse?
     
    Sheff, Mar 23, 2011
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  12. DJH

    DJH Member

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    DJH, Mar 23, 2011
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  13. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Guest

    Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

    Whats the objective of this curve ?

    Is it to path Yorkshire-Manchester Airport services via Victoria to the thru platforms at Piccadilly without crossing all of Piccadilly ?.. isnt Deansgate-Piccadilly at capacity already ?
     
    ADB968008, Mar 24, 2011
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  14. 504

    504 New Member

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    Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

    that part is not grade 1, also has very large holes in it thats why it is fenced off.
     
    504, Mar 24, 2011
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  15. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

    Which part is grade 1 please. I would expect groups like English Heritage to get involved in this.
    After going through the details in the link posted above, it seems that the chord is part of a grand scheme stretching from Broadgreen in Liverpool to Marsden and Grindleford in Yorkshire. I agree with some of the plans, but some seem far-fetched. Of course money is mentioned, approx £600 million. For the chord to be viable, all the rest of the scheme would have to be done.
     
    std tank, Mar 24, 2011
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  16. DJH

    DJH Member

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    Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

    The last sentence is the crux of the question. Without quadrupling Piccadilly to Eccles there is little benefit in the chord as Piccadilly to Eccles is already at capacity now.


    The listed part is in essence what passengers travel on before Planet and its carriages reverse down onto the granada section ie the relatively straight section from the mainline connection to the start of the Liverpool Road Station buildings. (water st bridge not included)

    Regards
    Duncan
     
    DJH, Mar 24, 2011
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  17. Guest

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    Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

    I can't see why there is this doctrinal problem with platforms A - D alongside the train shed - and 15 & 16 at Fairfield St. As has been said - quadrupling from Picc to Oxford Road isn't going to happen - or from Deansgate to Ordsall Lane - so where's the real operational benefit?

    Picc - Vic via Eastlands with the links to Rochdale, Bradford and Leeds and the flexibility to work via Phillips Park and Guide Bridge is surely more valuable than a blind curve with all these problems. It links Victoria with south and east inter city connections at Piccadilly and allows Northern inter city workings to access and run through Piccadilly - albeit with a reversal - which would be necessary with Castlefield anyway.

    Is it the "not invented here" syndrome

    As for crossing the throat - working out of the north side of Piccadilly would allow crossovers all the way to Slade Lane for trains reversing at Piccadilliy
     
    Guest, Mar 24, 2011
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  18. Orion

    Orion Well-Known Member

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    Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

    The last time I was at MOSI I found that the railway station had been changed out of all recognition. So much for preserving it!

    How often is the connection to Network Rail actually used, I wonder.

    Regards
     
    Orion, Mar 24, 2011
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  19. David Ward

    David Ward Well-Known Member

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    Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

    The land is owned by 'Nikal Investments' who bought it and the land below the arches used as a car park with development in mind. The land below includes the remains of the stables for the shunting horses used on site at Liverpool Road and for deliveries. I presume these would also be lost or severely altered should the new line require substantial earthworks.
     
    David Ward, Mar 24, 2011
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  20. DJH

    DJH Member

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    Re: Liverpool Road and the Budget

    On the arch issue the arches are also one of earliest examples of a skew arch bridge design. (Well I'm a civil engineer in training) Below are a few links for people to give a bit more in depth knowledge of the site. In the past a few volunteers including myself have thought about putting pen to paper and producing a guide of the structures on the site as something of interest to volunteer, visitor and enthusiast alike. One fact that may be of interest is of the 1/2 mile of track there is only 100 yards is at ground level. (It's why the inspection pit is where it is!)
    http://www.engineering-timelines.com/scripts/engineeringItem.asp?id=594

    The second link may be of greater interest:
    http://www.culture.gov.uk/images/publications/WHAF_Birth_Railway_Age_appendicies.pdf

    Regards
    Duncan
     
    DJH, Mar 26, 2011
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