Liverpool St-Norwich 1960/61

Does anyone have an Eastern Region timetable for 1960/61 with the schedules for Liverpool Street- Norwich, ie steam-hauled, usually with a 'Britannia' plus nine? I'm interested in the typical timings for these runs, and in particular the time allowed between London-Colchester, Colchester-Ipswich and Ipswich-Norwich (and for that matter between any other intermediate stops). Norwich-Ipswich non-stop would be especially useful.

I have a summer 1963 one, but I think that would reflect what EE Type 4s (Class 40s in today's parlance) were called upon to do.

Actually I want to compare what no 70013 achieved on 23 April with what was usual in the days of steam on the GE. Can anyone help - even by directing me elsewhere?

 

I dont have a timetable, but have been doing a little digging for you. In fact you probably need to go back into the 1950's when the GE got the Britannias and came up with their new timings, which were briefly the fastest in the land. 1960/1 diesels were already infiltrating.

I have had a quick scan through the "Railway Magazine" issues for 1960 and 61, but there is nothing in those. However in the November 1959 issue Mr Nock reports on a run from Norwich to Liverpool St, with 70001 and 330 tons loaded, which probably is nine. With just a stop at Ipswich, 46.3 miles from Norwich, scheduled in 45 minutes, actual 46 minutes to the stop. The following 68.7 miles to London was scheduled in 73 minutes, and achieved in 73 minutes and two seconds!

In "British Pacific Locomotives" by C J Allen there is some more data, curiously undated. There is a table for a nonstop special with 70039 on nine coaches. The run from Norwich to Ipswich was unremarkable due to a preceding train. The times were: Norwich to pass Ipswich, 46.25 miles, 50.44 minutes. Liverpool St: 115.05 miles, in 119.22 minutes actual.
Also in "British Pacific Locomotives" Allen records what he thinks might have been the fastest recorded run from Ipswich to Norwich, start to stop. Loco was 70035 on nine. 46.25 miles from a standing start in 39.07 minutes, against a scheduled 44 minutes, with a highest speed of 94 mph passing Diss.
I'll have a dig back further into the 1950's mags and see if anything further comes to light.

Hope this is of some help

46118

 

On a similar theme and not wishing to hijack the thread, I travelled out from Liverpool Steet to Harwich PQ on a boat train in 1961 (0845 Liv St 25/8/61), and have often wondered what was the likely motive power. Don't know if anyone could hazzard a guess?
The only thing that sticks in my mind from that trip was Brit 70011 Hotspur arriving at Liverpool Street as we departed and looking in a dreadfully rundown state.

Regards
Steve

 

There is some further info in the "Railway Magazine" for December 1952, just after the new faster times and Britannia haulage came in on the GE.

The timing from Liverpool Street to the stop at Ipswich, 68.7 miles, was 73 minutes scheduled. 70007 (twice), 70011 and 70005 are credited with net times of 68, 70, 64.25, and 68.25 minutes respectively.

For Ipswich-Norwich (46.3 miles, 45 min scheduled) at the same time, late 1952, all looking like nine coaches, the following engines and net times Ipswich-Norwich are recorded: 70013: 43.25 minutes. 70007: (3 runs) 41.25, 42.5, and 41.75 minutes. 70011: 41 minutes exactly.

Does any of this help you to put the recent 70013 run into context?

( Sorry cant help with the Boat Train info)

46118

 

Thanks 46118! Especially for trawling through back copies of magazines - sounds like you have an impressive collection! That's most useful. I spotted the logs in CJA's book on British 'Pacifics', and found a couple more in 'BR Standard Steam Locomotives' by ES Cox.

i'll compare your times and the others with those on 23/4 and report back for those interested. Incidentally, that run was with 10 on, so that was pretty close to the standard Norwich express formation of old - though I think the occasional busy train ran with 10

In the meantime, if anyone else has some useful info, I'd be glad to receive it.

Cheers, M