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LMS Patriot Project Updates

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Gav106, Apr 10, 2011.

  1. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Having happened, we can only hope some good, in the form of improved procedures for component QC and it's validation, comes out of this horrid situation.

    I too wish the project every success in recovering from these setbacks, which I'm 100% certain they will and (as much as they could well have done without all the aggro over the past year or so) that they'll be stronger than before.
     
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  2. JMJR1000

    JMJR1000 Member

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    It really is a crying shame to see all the woes, one after another, this project has befallen into. With now all the driving wheels found to be defective, it makes one wonder if the previous clowns overseeing the engineering side of this project actually got ANYTHING right on the Patriot?

    I believe a big engineering investigation was conducted to answer this very question though, so hopefully this is the last of the nasty surprises left behind now, and the project can make more positive strides for itself going forward.

    I just hope this hasn't damaged the project's reputation so much as to make a sizable number of people abandon their support for it altogether.

    Seeing as it's having a brand new boiler being built, the first of it's size in the UK in years, that can offer a much needed positive drive to the project.
     
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  3. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    Interesting to note that no official update has been put on the web site.
     
  4. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Well-Known Member

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    Just a thought - Will the crankpins and tyres be salvagable, or will these have to be replaced (for a second time in the case of the driving axle for the outside cylinders)?

    Richard.
     
  5. osprey

    osprey Resident of Nat Pres

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    I knew somebody would raise that....didn't dare to question that...
     
  6. Bikermike

    Bikermike Well-Known Member

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    Given advances in metallurgy out there, it does make you wonder how many engines went round with undetected flaws that would have been deemed scrap-worthy now.

    Wheels failing isn't something that strikes me as a common problem.

    I hope others are learning the painfully acquired lessons
     
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  7. Eightpot

    Eightpot Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Didn't Crewe works have a reputation for porous steel castings?
     
  8. osprey

    osprey Resident of Nat Pres

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    Ouch.....be careful what you say...
     
  9. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Resident of Nat Pres

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    That those that have had work done by said foundry aren’t in the same boat as 5551, I think 82045 had its wheels cast at the same place, Im hoping there’s no cause for concern there.
     
  10. daveannjon

    daveannjon Well-Known Member

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    As said 45699 Galatea had its replacement driving wheels cast by the same firm. So is there a requirement for especially mainline locos to have their wheels subject to regular NDT?

    Dave
     
  11. Davo

    Davo Well-Known Member

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    I was just wondering the same as Richard Roper 56E can all the 6 tyres and middle and front crank axles still be salvaged off the old wheelsets if the scrap wheelpans were cut up very carefully would you know daveannjon I did of course get told by Linda Westerman one of the L.M.S. Pat admin workers at stafford who does the membership and donations at the hub in stafford it's very unfortunate that they will have to raise all the funds again if the lifetime members are willing to dig deep again or boro foundry could recast the wheels cheaper maybe for compensation to recast all 6 wheels? ( a decision is going to be made on how to continue ahead by the main design planners and organisers of the pat project in their next meeting on the 31 July) also how much was the 1st casting of the wheelsets cost I guess they would have been cast after the main loco frames and cab was cast and assembled so maybe 3 years after the project took off in 2008. So unfortunately now it's not looking like before 2024 when the 5551 loco could be completed.
    Davo 56F
     
  12. 46137

    46137 New Member

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    It didn't, Matt.
     
  13. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Ahh my mistake then.
     
  14. Davo

    Davo Well-Known Member

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    Thinking here about something to do with the tyres on the driver wheels on the Pat's rejects wheelpans, if they have already been heated up once and the gibson rings placed on them and allowed to contract onto the wheels can the tyres be reheated a 2nd time is what I'm asking, I'm also guessing the 2 remaining axles including the crank axle could be reused if the reject wheels were pressed off or cut off the axle ends carefully using a acetylene cutter around the centre hubs of the old wheels without damaging the key ways? Or could anyone on nat pres who knows more about this subject regarding the wheelsets shed more light on this question?
    Davo 56F
     
  15. Eightpot

    Eightpot Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Tyre removal was certainly done here a century or so back. If found working loose, remove, wrap some shim around the wheel and replace. A ring of tube the size of the wheel with holes around the wheel side would be put in place. Couple it up to the gas main, turn on and light it. A common practice in roundhouses in the US apparently, and right up to the end of steam traction.

    If this was applied to the Patriot to re-use the tyres, no doubt a skimming of the tread profile after fitting would be a likely requirement.

     
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  16. Ploughman

    Ploughman Part of the furniture

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    From time spent in a wheelshop at BREL York.
    I seem to recall that the Gibson ring was cut out on a lathe prior to going in the fire to expand the old tyre off.
     
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  17. Phill S

    Phill S New Member

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    Other components should be salvageable, assuming all this constant assembly/dismantling hasn't damaged them already. Turn the wheel centres to swarf, you shouldn't have to touch the rest.
    Makes me wonder if it will ever get finished. Is there much parts commonality with preserved locos? I wonder if any of the good bits might find an alternative use.
     
  18. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Have the problems with the wheels been made public? I certainly don't know what they are. Are the problems subjective opinion or objective fact? I'm just asking because, if the former, it wouldn't be the first time that a problem has been solved by changing the person giving that opinion. It does seem strange that it has taken so long for these problems to surface.
     
  19. W.Williams

    W.Williams Well-Known Member

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    This was the last update on the wheels on the site.



    Driving Wheels

    Work is progressing well at Ian Riley & Sons, Bury on the correction of the welded repair to 3 of the driving wheels.

    The current status as of 4th February is as follows.

    Centre Driving Axle.

    Both Wheels have been removed from the Axle, the old weld has been removed from the Wheel hub. The hole bore was then and re-welded to the approved method and then machined to the correct size and specification to pressing back onto the Axle.

    Trailing Driving Axle.

    As described in the last report the Left Trailing Wheel was causing problems as it was impossible to press the wheel off of the axle. The only option was to cut the Axle close to the wheel and the machine the remains of the Axle out of the Wheel hub. This means that a replacement Axle is required and the Right hand Trailing Wheel also had to be removed from the scrap axle, slightly more work than originally anticipated. This has all now been undertaken and the wheel hubs have been cleaned up, re-welded and machined as required, ready for pressing onto the new axle.

    This is on order from South Africa, but delivery times have become extended since the order was placed due to Covid-19 restrictions in South Africa. Once received in the UK it will be machined and the 4 wheels will be pressed onto their axles. The final job is to check the tyres still run true by spinning them in the wheel lathe. It may be necessary to give the tyres a skim to ensure they run true, all 3 driving wheel set will have to be done as all wheels must be the same size. Ian Riley has assured us that his new, larger wheel lathe will be up and running for this work, should it be required. The Crank Axle is already at Bury having been sent up with the other set in case this skimming was required.
     
  20. Kylchap

    Kylchap Member

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    Extract from the Project's latest bulletin to members:

    "The inspection was carried out by British Engineering Services (BES), using magnetic particle testing (MPI). Three members of our team attended at Riley and Son to witness the testing, joined by a senior representative from Boro Foundry who cast the wheels in 2010/11.

    We have just received the formal BES report, which confirms that all the five wheels tested have widespread serious cracking.

    This has very significant consequences for the project and we are currently working on our options, with the support of PRCLT, our Certification Body Ricardo, and Boro Foundry, who share our urgent concern to understand the cause and confirm the way forward. However, all the indications are that the wheels will have to be replaced."
     

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