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LMS Patriot Project Updates

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Gav106, Apr 10, 2011.

  1. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Following on from @Steve's post [#1638], the LBSCR A1/A1x wheels were also built up from assembled castings, AIUI by individual spoke, boss and rim section. From what I've read about Fenchurch, they only seem to be good for about 120 years of hard use! I don't know if the same applied to any other Stroudley designs. If we've anyone near the NRM, could they please have a butcher's at Gladstone, next time they're in there?
     
  2. Bikermike

    Bikermike Well-Known Member

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    I wonder is the way the wheels were put on exacerbated the problem? the theory would be: take a sub-par wheel, an over-size axle, and then force-fit with insufficient support, and you stress the wheels in directions they aren't designed to take stress in, and viola - cracking. When the dust has settled, it would be interesting to see the cracking patterns and see expert analysis of them

    The wheel axle thing could be a nasty case of tolerances all going the wrong way (ie a few % error in the drawing, the hole in the middle of the wheel coming in at the bottom of the allowance, and the axle coming in over.

    Wonder how powerful the press was? power-tools are great until they provide more force than the component can take
     
  3. Ploughman

    Ploughman Part of the furniture

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    I think that the axle press at York BREL was in the order of 200 tons for carriage wheels.
     
  4. Bikermike

    Bikermike Well-Known Member

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    What size press was the original done one?
    Was the wheel designed to be capable of standing the lateral forces generated by such a big press?
     
  5. marshall5

    marshall5 Well-Known Member

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    Have I missed something as I don't recollect any official statement that the cracks are in the wheel bosses as suggested above?
    Ray.
     
  6. Bikermike

    Bikermike Well-Known Member

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    Has there been anything official saying it's not?
    The only statement seen is "We have just received the formal BES report, which confirms that all the five wheels tested have widespread serious cracking."
    There's no reason that cracking relating to the axle would only occur at the boss - it will occur at the point of highest stress, I'd guess that could be either end of the spoke.

    It's been stated that the wheels were hard to remove from the axles, and that is a stress that is unusual for a wheel to be subjected to.

    There are a a variety of places where the wheels were placed under stresses they could not cope with, not just in the initial casting process.
     
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  7. Arther1973

    Arther1973 New Member

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    Crikey; I'm glad I read this thread AFTER the driving wheels for 65033 came back all nice from SDRE! My best wishes to the project team as they've certainly got a job on their hands.

    I don't have the engineering background to comment in great depth about castings back in the day but some of the remedial welding we carried out on the J21's driving wheels was to correct the standard of Victorian metallurgy which I gather was a bit hit-and-miss as others have implied.
     
  8. Paulthehitch

    Paulthehitch Member

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    Well I have been told that W11 has her original 1878 frames. These can be identified by this mounting holes for the speed indicator impeller, she being the only one of her type fitted with the device.

    Moreover, they are made from wrought-iron, ''best best'' quality naturally!
     
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  9. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    As I understand it, iron came in three grades: Best Iron; Best Best Iron; and Best Best Best Iron.

    Off topic, but Thomas Bouche's Tay bridge was made of Best Iron; in other words, worst iron.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
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  10. Davo

    Davo Well-Known Member

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    A big day of tough decisions tomorrow 31.7.2021. for the L.M.S. Patriot 5551 project team founder members and engineering team at their meeting about the way forward for continuing the build of the L.M.S. pat, when I went on the Welsh mountaineer Gavin mark Shell and some of the team to members who were curious in the way forward revealed in a small speech at Warrington B.Q. before boarding that approximately to recast each driver wheel would be £15,000 what it cost originionally at Boro foundry equalling £90,000 for all 6 maybe less for the scrap value of the old driver wheelsets and possibly Boro foundry could recast the wheelsets at a reduced price for a bit of compensation seen as though the fault lies at the foundry after the molten metal was poured into the sand boxes and could have occured when cooling too fast or poor quality compounds in the iron ore or the mix of iron ore coke and Lime could have been not good quality overall, gav said and 2 smaller crucibles to pour the molten steel were needed to cast all six original driver wheels and further revealed that Llangollen railway paid no money out to the L.M.S. PAT team cos it all went to the receivers to save the Llan from closure, and so some of the money would have to be raised again to do a 2nd casting of the 6ft 9in wheels, and also the tender itself needs £500,000 to complete its construction, and the big question on every members lips and supporters is the 5551 unknown warrior loco team still determined to run it on the mainline is been decided at this meeting tomorrow? despite all the pitfalls it's been through building machining and constructing the parts in some areas like the loco frames, tender frames, cylinders, riveted boiler, cab and cylinder and boiler saftey valves snifter valves, lubrication system, reverser screw and nut the engineering team have faired well in my opinion, I just hope regardless of if it takes another 4+ years to complete 5551 the team are still willing to continue its construction. Anyhow all will probably be revealed tomorrow night or on monday. After their meeting.
    Davo 56F.
     
  11. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    I think that your understanding of the receivership process may be incomplete.
    LR Plc had no choice in where funds went; everything went to the receivers once the company was declared insolvent. It most certainly wasn’t to save anything from closure.
     
  12. Flying Phil

    Flying Phil Well-Known Member

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    I am surprised at the quoted cost of completing a tender....Is that really the case?
     
  13. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Likewise, wondering if an extra nought has been added as a typo?
     
  14. Davo

    Davo Well-Known Member

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    To pay outstanding debts for money owed to other loco owners for incomplete and poor work and due to the Llan not been able to run trains cos of the pandemic lockdown on small and private companies not been able to trade or operate such as the Llan losing money cos of the several lockdowns in 2020 so had no choice but to auction off some of the rolling stock heavy plant and machinery and crowd funding appeal but to cut a long story short at least the Llan was saved and trains are able to run in the Dee valley yet again.
    Davo 56F
     
  15. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I doubt you’d do it for £50k, but even so £500k struck me as a considerable sum.

    The Patriot certainly strikes me as having been a very expensive project, and doesn’t seem to have traded that cost for speed relative to comparable projects.

    Tom
     
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  16. Davo

    Davo Well-Known Member

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    The only good thing about the tender is that the frames are near as dam it a complete set of frames the 6 horn guides drag box and iron guards brake rigging have been all fitted at leaky finders wether or not the tender frame is on its wheelsets. I'm not sure but it most certainly dosent have its tender tank but dont shoot the messenger about that what Gavin mark shell quoted for the tender to be complete or if he meant the quote for the full completion of 5551 (which I highly doubt personally that it would be more if that included the loco itself completed)
     
  17. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

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    Hi, I can't remember mentioning the tender at all in the process. Maybe some crossed wires there.

    I actually have no idea what the tender will cost to complete. I know a new tender tank will cost £30,000 ish.

    Also just to clarify, the board meeting that is taking place tomorrow is just a normal one, that is done every 3 months, and just updates everyone on each depts goings on etc etc.

    We are still, and always have been, 100% committed to building 5551 to the mainline standards. There seems to be a slight bit of confusion on the post/info that was put out about the BM looking at what we are going to do going forward, what it meant was very simply, a discussion to see what was the best option and direction to go in.

    I really don't want to go over old ground again, however people will make comments about how money has been spent in the past so I'll repeat what I have said previously, I am responsible for helping raise funds for the project, many of you on here will have met me in person behind a sales stand, I have raised a very considerable sum of money for the project over the years, and signed up many new members along the way, and also personally put in over £6k of my own money as well. So no one is more frustrated when they see all the wasted money (again as said previously, some our own faults, others from suppliers) than myself. The project has simply lost about 5 years of time from the decisions of individuals and will take about a minimum of 4 years (all down to money) to get in to a position of being a working locomotive. I can only apologise to all those who have given money, remember i am also one of you, for the way the engineering was managed, or not managed, in the past, but believe me when I say, the team who are doing it right now are 100 million times more professional than previously, and everything it being ticked off properly.

    There really is nothing more that I can say on the matter, I wish we weren't in the position we are but I don't have a time machine to change the past, I just hope that ALL loco groups and other groups look at what's gone wrong here and learn from it and don't waste money. But unfortunately with the way preservation is, and there are always people who know better than everyone else, I don't think this is the first or last time that something like this will happen.

    Also, I don't think there will be anything posted after the BM tomorrow in any public domain, but the next members warrior magazine will be out at the end of August start of September time and will include anything that is important from the meeting

    Kind regards Gavin
     
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  18. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Well-Known Member

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    Well put Gavin - I have every confidence we will get there. I am also confident that with new project management, the errors of the past will not be repeated. In broad terms, the project management team has left the days of being "enthusiastic amateurs" behind, and has transformed into a professional Engineering concern, thanks to the partnership with PRCLT. This has so far proved to be a very good thing - As I've said previously, the problems which have come to light since PRCLT have been involved, all date from much earlier in the project's lifetime. Yes, we will need more time and more money, but at least the project is now in capable hands. I may be 5 years older when I see 5551 run, but I have every confidence that I WILL see it run, and on the Big Railway too.

    Richard.
     
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  19. Flying Phil

    Flying Phil Well-Known Member

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    In fact Richard's post above is fairly typical of the whole of the Railway preservation movement. It was started by "enthusiastic amateurs" who were able to get the schemes off the ground despite widespread scepticism .....but once the reality of running an ever larger, more complex, operation to a wider range of standards becomes apparent, the need of a more professional management and relevant expertise is highlighted, which often needs to be paid for to achieve.
    It is amazing that we have these new build projects. They are doing, with small teams, what Swindon, Derby and Doncaster did with decades of experience, huge dedicated workshops and thousands of skilled men!
     
  20. daveannjon

    daveannjon Well-Known Member

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    Well 'The Warrior' newsletter has arrived and I must say it makes a depressing read. Apart from the driving wheel problems it seems that the main frames had not been descaled to get rid of mill scale and now every component, cylinders, stretchers, horn guides etc. will have to be removed as they could work loose in time. Some of the fitted bolts for attaching the cylinders were no such thing, being undersized and incorrectly machined, also the outside cylinders need a modification due to the works drawings being incorrect.

    I hope the other new builds are not affected in the same way.

    Dave
     

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