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LMS Patriot Project Updates

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Gav106, Apr 10, 2011.

  1. 2392

    2392 Well-Known Member

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    In some regards this project could be looked on as an unfortunate mirror image of the A1SLT. Insomuch as they've had no end of bad luck with the production of parts compared to the A1SLT with their almost endless run of good luck..... OK I know in the early days the A1 Boys and Girls had "issues", ut, they managed to overcome said issues.
     
  2. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Sorry to say it, but TBH, the only way "luck" comes into it has been a rose tinted over-reliance on said quality, matched only by an historic dearth of the procedures to ensure that wasn't the case.

    The better news is that we've both the example set by A1SLT, to show how so involved a project needs be approached and the Clan Project who have proven that the sort of turnabout 'The Unknown Warrior" needs is an unquestionably realistic prospect.

    In no small measure, the openness and willingness to discuss problems and possible solutions speak volumes for the project's current leadership. By itself, 'deserving to succeed' istn't remotely enough and this has evidently been taken on board by a new team, who are demonstrating all the qualities needed to get the build back on track. I wish them every success.
     
  3. Dunfanaghy Road

    Dunfanaghy Road Member

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    You make your own luck, or not, as the case may be ... ... ...
    Pat
     
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  4. BanburyKev

    BanburyKev New Member

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    The latest Engineering Update has been posted on the project website yesterday.

    Engineering Update - March 2022
    Submitted by Kevin West on 16 March, 2022 - 15:18
    As the regulations surrounding Covid have relaxed work on The Unknown Warrior has started to return to a more normal pace. Staffing levels at the PRCLT workshops have returned to pre-Covid levels, allowing more work to be undertaken. Added to this the overhaul of 6233 Duchess of Sutherland has been completed and the locomotive has returned to service hauling trains on the national network, both on its planned commitments and standing in successfully for another locomotive.

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    Kevin West and Colin Hall discuss progress alongside 5551 during one of our monthly meetings. Photo by Andy Collinson


    The last edition of the Warrior did not carry a normal Engineering Update, as it contained the Project Reset presentation that was given at our AGM in November. I will try to cover the major events and progress from August 2021 in the report.

    The PRCLT engineers have returned to more regular work on 5551 allowing the delivery of the full assessment of the chassis to progress. Our engineering team have continued monthly meetings at West Shed to keep track of current work and forward plan the work program.

    Chassis
    The main activity on the chassis since last August has involved checking the main frame assembly and the of components mounted on it. This work was deemed necessary following the removal of the outside cylinders for some welding work.

    Once the cylinders had been removed it showed the frame plates still had ‘mill scale’ on the surface. This ‘mill scale’ is formed during the manufacturing process while the hot material is rolled to the required thickness. A skin forms on the surface which can be rough and flaky. This scale must be removed to provide a flat, clean surface for any component to mount against.

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    Chassis being prepared for removal of the Inside Cylinder. Photo by Andy Collinson


    With ‘mill scale’ found on the frame mounting surfaces for the outside cylinders and the bogie mounting stretcher, which was removed at the same time, this led us to question the condition under other parts fitted to the frames. A sample Spring Hanger Bracket and a Horn Guide were removed and showed up problems with both the frame surface condition and issues around the fixing holes. The correct fitting condition will give full surface contact between the two parts over the whole contact area. Conditions found have included what appears to be mill scale, plus burrs around the fixing holes that have been formed when the holes have been drilled and reamed. The burrs may be only small but they are strong enough to hold the mating part off the surface of the frame plate. This allows moisture and debris to get into the resultant gap and cause corrosion. Also, if left while the locomotive is working, the burr could be fretted away resulting in the fitted part becoming loose requiring the loco being taken out of service for repairs.

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    A close up of one of the Frame holes showing the burrs and the rough surface condition of the frame surface. Photo by Kevin West


    [​IMG]
    A view showing the condition of the Frame plate following removal of one of the Spring Hanger Brackets. The silver shows where there has been good contact between the parts. The black areas is where dirt has found its way into the small gap and an area of surface corrosion can be seen under the centre hole. Photo by Kevin West


    These burrs should have been removed before the parts were finally fitted, but it appears this has not happened in numerous places over the frame assembly. The only correct course of action is to check everything that had been fitted to the complete assembly. So far, between the frames the Inside Cylinder and all Stretchers back to the Leading Driving Axle, along with all the Horn Guides, Spring Hangers and Brake Hangers have been removed and rectification work is underway.

    [​IMG]
    Chassis prepared for repairs, Feb 2022. Photo by Kevin West


    The Motion Girders and Mounting Brackets have been removed from the outside of the frames for similar work. Once the holes have been de-burred, the frames will be shot blasted back to bare metal to produce the clean flat surface required before everything is refitted. New fixings are required as we have no documentation for those originally fitted.

    [​IMG]
    Outside of Frames prepared for repairs, Feb 2022. Photo by Kevin West


    The rear end is being left to maintain alignment of the chassis. Once the front end has been completed attention will switch to the rear end. At the front end of the locomotive it has been found that the Front Buffer Beam and the mounting brackets have been drilled incorrectly which has resulted in the frames being slightly out of alignment. As we have no documentation for the mounting brackets these will be replaced along with a new Buffer Beam as it is cheaper and easier to replace than repair.

    [​IMG]
    Front Beam. Photo by Kevin West


    The chassis has been placed on a set of rail mounted trucks to allow it to be moved around the workshop and outside for the shot blasting.

    [​IMG]
    5551 in the West Shed, Dec 2021. Photo by Andy Collinson


    The workshop has become very crowded with parts of 5551 removed for the current work. We are to provide another container for storage of parts and material which will clear space in the workshop to aid the next phase of the work.

    [​IMG]
    Various chassis parts from 5551 in the West Shed, Feb 2022. Photo by Kevin West


    Following the scanning of some documents from the early years of the project, examination of invoices showed that some welding work had been undertaken on the Frame Plates. If done properly the weld should be almost invisible. Unfortunately, these welds have been found to be been poorly executed, with voids instead of solid material. The decision to check all the chassis mountings has proved to be necessary as these poor welds were previously hidden behind mounted parts. Also, there is no surviving documentation to cover this work. Rectification will involve removing the existing weld back to virgin material before the weld is replaced to the required standard, with all the supporting method statements and documentation.

    [​IMG]
    Poor welded repair on Frame Plate, Feb 2022. Photo by Kevin West


    Motion
    Machining of other fittings continues as time allows.

    ‘New’ Lathe
    PRCLT have made an important addition to the workshop machinery at West Shed, with our help. In January 2022 they acquired a Dean Smith & Grace type 25 lathe along with a large selection of tooling and attachments. This will enable a wide range of components for 5551 to be worked on in-house, with economic and project control benefits. As a minimum, these will include piston heads and rods, valve heads and rods, rear cylinder covers, motion bushes, reversing shaft ejector ring, rear cylinder covers and multiple non-ferrous castings.

    After agreeing the business case, the LMS-Patriot Project has provided loan finance to enable the purchase with a phased repayment agreement.

    [​IMG]
    The new lathe in position in the West Shed. Photo by Andy Collinson


    [​IMG]
    Inside Cylinder following removal – 2nd Feb 2022. Photo by Kevin West


    Cylinders
    The Inside Cylinder was removed from the chassis in January 2022 to allow access to frame repair works.

    Detailed work in preparation for the installation of the Valve Guide Bars into the outer cylinders has been completed and the cylinders have been delivered to the specialist welding company. Whilst the bars are being welded in position some work will also be undertaken on the Exhaust Flange, where the casting was a little short on material. This resulted in the mounting holes being very close to the edge of the flange which is not acceptable.

    [​IMG]
    The Outside Cylinders loaded for transport to the welding specialist. Photo by PRCLT


    Driving Wheels
    The Driving Wheels have continued to be a large portion of our work effort over the period of this report. The foundry that supplied the original castings has been working cooperatively with us to establish the way forward. Following our first discussions after our June 2021 testing by British Engineering Services, the foundry brought in their own castings experts in the summer to examine the defects and the casting process used from start to finish. Their initial thoughts were that, while the cause of the defects was unclear, repair could be carried out, subject to agreement on the repair methodology, and subject to further metallurgical analysis by their expert involving a sample taken from one of our wheels. We agreed to this analysis being carried out, and at this point decided to involve our certification body and a volunteer metallurgist in a joint technical review. The team met the foundry in October to discuss the technical casting issues, the further analysis needed, and the safety certification requirements. The metallurgical analysis was completed by the foundry’s expert in November and shared with us. This led to the foundry concluding that the defects had arisen during the casting process; and that repair would not be practicable to the standard required. The foundry had previously advised us that they were no longer equipped to cast wheels of the size we need; so a further meeting with the foundry took place in December, leading to constructive settlement terms being agreed

    After consideration of the limited options available, we are now in advanced discussions with William Cook Cast Products of Sheffield to provide the new castings. The casting pattern has been dispatched to the foundry and needs a little repair work following 10 years in store. At a recent meeting held at Cook’s plant we were able to view the first two Driving Wheels that have been cast there for Class B17 No. 61673 Spirit of Sandringham. They are excellent castings.

    We expect to be in a position to place an order in the next few weeks. Full details will follow in Warrior 53.

    [​IMG]
    Driving Wheel casting for the B17 Spirit of Sandringham at William Cook’s Cast Products. Photo by Kevin West


    Bogie
    Work continues on the rework of the bogie as time permits.

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    A 12-feed Silvertown Lubricator from 6203. Photo by Kevin West


    Lubrication System
    Design work has been completed on the 12-feed Silvertown Mechanical Lubricators using the original fitted to 46203 Princess Margret Rose as a pattern. Drawings have been completed for checking by PRCLT and quotations have been received for the patterns and castings.

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    The Drive Clutch on the Lubricator from 6203. Photo by Kevin West


    [​IMG]
    The Drive Cage on the Lubricator from 6203. The pump units have been removed to allow preparation of drawings. Photo by Kevin West


    It is believed several other locomotive groups require the same 12-feed Silvertown Lubricators as fitted to 5551, so we are making enquiries and will possibly produce a small batch of lubricators alongside those for 5551.

    Fittings
    Manufacture of our Safety Valves has been completed by Locomotive Maintenance Services of Loughborough.

    [​IMG]
    The Safety Valves. Photo by Andy Collinson


    Boiler
    HBSS have completed the installation of the Boiler Slides. Fitting of the Transverse Stays that run across the Firebox above the Inner Firebox is the next task to be undertaken.

    [​IMG]
    A fitted Boiler Slide. Photo by HBSS


    Tender
    Work continues on the Tender Chassis at Leaky Finders as time permits. The chassis has recently been moved into their new workshop.

    Tender Tank Design
    No progress since last report.

    Paperwork, Approvals and Certification
    We have scanned all the Engineering invoice documents held in our Stafford office to make them readily available to all of the Engineering team.

    The task of collating the paperwork required for approval and certification continues. Amongst the work-streams being undertaken are Risk Assessments for the current and future work streams, compilation of the necessary documentation and paperwork for all components on the locomotive. One area that has been a concern is the provision of material grade confirmation certificates, but recent discussions with a number of parties has indicated that on-site testing at West Shed will be possible which will save on the amount of work required and significantly reduce the cost.

    Certification Forms to track progress and eventually sign off as complete individual parts are being developed. We have trialed the first iteration of form and this has shown up some refinements required. We expect these updated forms in the next few weeks, after which we will start another large session of form filling.

    Planning for the Future
    When 5551 is complete and ready to haul trains on the main line and heritage railways we will need a support crew to look after the locomotive and undertake the daily preparation duties.

    Andy Collinson and Kevin West have joined the support crew for 6233 Duchess of Sutherland to both help the locomotive on its workings and also to give us experience of what is involved in running a locomotive out on the national network. At present we are waiting to undertake our PTS (Personal Trackside Safety) examinations which we hope to complete in the next month. Until these are completed we are getting our hands dirty with cleaning duties.

    [​IMG]
    6233 at West Shed . Photo by Andy Collinson
     
  5. Bikermike

    Bikermike Well-Known Member

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    Wow! That is root-and-branch stuff. Fingers crossed you can now have got a baseline to move forwards.
     
  6. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    It must be very hard for those people who are involved with the sheer mountain of a task to have to in effect strip the engine down fully to every last component because those people tasked with assembly made such a poor job of it in the first place, to the point where you can't trust anything that was done, and the only way is to take it apart again, only to find your worse fears realised, such essentials like de burring holes not being done, milling scale not being removed, Someone somewhere must have asked, should we be de scaling this, or asking should we put a burr down that hole to clean it yet nothing was done. it makes you wonder, who was overseeing this project, and why how no one said its not being done right, it was only when circumstances meant others started to notice some things were not done right, ,but no one expected the full horror story that was about to emerge .
     
  7. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Well-Known Member

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    Onwards and upwards... We'll get there and have an engine to be proud of eventually.

    Richard.
     
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  8. Phill S

    Phill S New Member

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    Bet a fiver the frames are next for the bin. What a mess. I do wish the new team luck, but I'm pretty damn cross that it's turned out so terrible.
     
  9. Phill S

    Phill S New Member

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    Also-that's a REALLY nice lathe. Would love to see more photos. What attachments came with it? Does it have the powered topslide? I've ran a few in my time, lovely machines.
     
  10. Simon Smith

    Simon Smith New Member

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    Makes you realise how Llangollen got into the mess they did! some pretty shoddy engineering work!
     
  11. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    ... and absolutely zilch project management! Shades of Stonehaven drainage works. Lessons to be learned at every level.

    Peter
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2022
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  12. 5944

    5944 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Hence why 60007 had someone inspecting every aspect of the boiler overhaul as it progressed. Incidentally, I asked my dad if he could guess which loco the badly welded frame hole came from, and his first instinct was Morayshire. Understandable, you'd expect a 90 year old loco to have a bit of wear and tear and dodgy repairs over the years, not a brand new one.
     
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  13. osprey

    osprey Resident of Nat Pres

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    Ah that answers my curiosity. On my first visit to the Patriot project having joined it, I was doom laden by the Llangollen workshop , and seeing 60007's boiler there was most perturbed. Glad to hear they, 60007, had a scrutineer on the job. I hope the railway gets back on its feet again, because it is a fabulous setting..
     
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  14. Davo

    Davo Well-Known Member

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    I'm personally now not going to throw any more money at the L.M.S. 5551 Pat project and decided not to stay a member, Now that a catalogue of lets say engineering defects have been discovered over the past 2 years while stripping the frames to get the middle cylinder block off besides discovering the mill scale on the frames and wrong diameter bolts E.T.C. and the only glimmer of hope is that a new set of 6 new driving wheels can be cast at cooks engineering and possibly the frames and cylinders could be reassembled before the back end of 2022 and maybe all 6 wheels recast, and the completion now of 5551 could be 4+ years. And at least 3 more loco new build projects could be complete before then including the P2 2007 I think ile throw my money elsewhere on projects that are going to cross the finishing line in less than 4 years. At least I'm glad I sponsored the boiler and tender for 5551 and not the wheels frames or cylinders or valve gear.
    Davo 56F
     
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  15. northernsteam

    northernsteam Member

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    The above details make me sad for all the effort and enthusiasm given by many people into this well intentioned project, I am sure that in time it will succeed.
    In all humility, I say how grateful I am that 72010 Hengist have managed to avoid these problems, thanks to its rebirth in 2011. I don't think it would have even got as far as Patriot under the previous management.
    Though I do wonder if the team removed all the burrs from the reamed out holes in the frame assembly, quite a tall order. Very tempting to ream the hole and then fit the bolt! Very best wishes to the 5551 team.
     
  16. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

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    Im not going to lie, it does hurt seeing things like this. The new management of engineering on 5551 are doing their absolute utmost to get 5551 up and running as soon as possible, seeing members quit when the faults lie at the doorstep of ex members and contractors is upsetting for those trying to put right the errors of the past as it makes it even more difficult to achieve.

    I do hope that given time you may change your decision as you see progress go in the right direction. Please remember that you are still on the first passenger train regardless of your future decisions.

    There is no other way to say this, but to get 5551 completed we need the finance to get things moving. We have a great start with our current finances, but there is no doubt that more income allows us to get on with things.

    If anyone wants to help, please visit www.lms-patriot.org.uk where you can join up as a member or make a one off donation.
    Kind regards Gavin
     
  17. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Gavin, how do I put this? Somethings gone wrong, but fair play to you and the rest of those around you’ve been honest enough to admit it, you haven’t hidden or tried to fob people off with BS, speaking for myself I really can’t knock that.
    I’ve chucked a few quid towards 5551 and I’ll do so again in the future.
    I’ve said before that honesty and integrity are 2 things you can’t put a monetary value on, I really can’t fault you for coming on here and taking the time out to keep us updated.
    Chin up and I’ll keep my fingers crossed for you.
    All the best, Matt
     
  18. 60017

    60017 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Well said Matt. The latest round of posts in this thread prompted me to become a member of The LMS-Patriot Company (better late than never) and chuck a few extra quid in the pot.
     
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  19. Phill S

    Phill S New Member

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    I really do applaud the openness of the new management of the Patriot. As painful as it is, it will hopefully serve as a warning to others. It also makes clear the problems in an undeniable fashion. I have seen other restorations where work has been terrible, but the people sorting it kept the details to themselves. This gave those responsible for the problems free reign to claim that there was nothing wrong, it's all politics and so unfair...they soon shut up when photos appear!

    That said, it would be a shame if those responsible faced no sanction. This must be a multi million pound cock up. We can but be thankful that it got found now, and not when it inevitably clown-car self dismantled out on the main line.
     
  20. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    Surely it would have got nowhere near to the main line due to the lack of a proper paper trail relating to materials and construction. The project seems to have been launched with good intent by amateurs in a very amateurish fashion and no one seemed to have noticed. I'm not sure how you can sanction anyone for being an amateur.

    Peter
     
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