LMS Period 3 stock - The porthole years.

I hope one of you more heavly versed in things Midland could help me with a couple of questions about LMS stock.

As I understand it the LMS porthole stock was a BR modified version of the the last LMS built P3 coaches - Correct?

The Porthole stock was built only in BTK, TO and CK configurations - Correct?

P3 Third open stock numbered 27xxx and abover were of earlier 'LMS' style while 26xxx were Porthole - Correct?

When were the last LMS designed locomotive hauled coaches withdrawn - 1974-5?

 

I have the answers to most of your questions, but it will take a while to pull the data together. Bear with...

David

 

David - Many thanks, I look forward to it!

 

Here goes...

The porthole window, or at least an early version of it actually appeared with the 1939 Coronation Scot train which was sent to North America with 6200 (aka 6229) A second set was part-completed when war broke out and neither were ultimately used for the service for which they were intended. The full and involved story is given a chapter of its own in Jenkinson & Essery's LMS coaches: an illustrated history, from which most of the information in this post is taken. The porthole on these vehicles featured a centre division/hinged top half rather than the single pane of glass with a ventilator above on the more conventional post-nationalisation built stock.

Although built by BR, the design was fundamentally LMS and until the introduction of the BR Mk 1 stock, pre-nationalisation designs were also continued by Southern and Western regions at least. BR torpedo ventilators featured on some vehicles, but I do not know where they were designed: probably a case of sharing best practice. The porthole was most likely to be a continuation of ongoing LMS design development rather than BR innovation.

The following table details P3 porthole stock:-

Type Diagram # Build date Works Running numbers Withdrawn Notes

FK 2162 1950 Wolverton 1114-1128 12/64-12/65 BR torpedo vents, Finished in Crimson/cream
BFK 2168 1949 Wolverton 5063-5077 11/64-05/65 Finished in Crimson/cream
TK 2170 1950 Met-Cam 13085-13184 05/64->xx/68 BR torpedo vents, Finished in Crimson/cream
BTK 2161 1950 Derby 26666-26755 03/64-01/68 " " " " " " " Some painted BR blue/grey post 1965
" " 1949/50 Wolverton 26756-26880 12/63->xx68 " " " " " " "
" " 1950 Wolverton 26881-27005 12/63->xx68 " " " " " " "
" " 1950 Derby 27006-27045 12/63->xx68 " " " " " " "
" " 1950 Wolverton 6030-6038 12/64-10/67 " " " " " " "
" " 1950 Wolverton 27046-27095 11/65->xx68 " " " " " " "
CK 2159 1949/50 Derby 24500-24739 13/63->xx68 All steel construction with modified profile. 1949 vehicles finished in LMS liverywith BR
numbering and 'M' prefixes, rest in Carmine & cream. BR torpedo vents on most.
FO 2160 1949 Wolverton 7465-7484 11/64-06/65 BR torpedo vents, Finished in Crimson/cream. Last LMS style vestibule coaches built.

Unfortunately, I can't give withdrawal dates after 1968. The sleeping cars were the last passenger carrying stock to LMS design in service as far as I remember, running into the early 1970s. Full brakes, bereft of their gangways, were used on newspaper trains until this traffic finished on the railway, but until recently, I believe that EWS were still operating 1959 built LMS designed Inspection saloons.

Hope that this helps,

David

 

Thanks, that is a great help.